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BCowan

Goat Hill (photo tour)
« on: March 11, 2014, 10:15:31 PM »
photos by Jeff Warne   Shelter Island, NY

Clubhouse


#1 Tee


#1 Green


#2 Tee


#2 Green


#3 Tee


#3 Green


#4


#5 Tee


#5 Green


#6 Tee


#6 Green


#7 Tee


#7 Green


#8


#8 Green


#9 Tee


#9 Green
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 10:44:41 PM by BCowan »

BHoover

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Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2014, 10:21:54 PM »
Am I missing something here? Why would I want to play this place, because after seeing these photos, I'd be sure to steer clear. Not being a wise ass. I just don't see anything but a rather bland, and frankly boring, track (with the exception of #9).
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 10:23:52 PM by Brian Hoover »

Andy Treen

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Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 10:34:44 PM »
Where is it?
First Assistant Professional
Taconic Golf Club

BCowan

Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2014, 10:41:04 PM »
Shelter Island, NY

Gene Greco

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Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2014, 10:43:24 PM »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

jeffwarne

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Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 10:46:46 PM »
Am I missing something here? Why would I want to play this place, because after seeing these photos, I'd be sure to steer clear. Not being a wise ass. I just don't see anything but a rather bland, and frankly boring, track (with the exception of #9).

The Goat is by invitation only ;), so no worries.
I can assure you, no one has ever called it boring. ;D ;D ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 10:49:36 PM »
Am I missing something here? Why would I want to play this place, because after seeing these photos, I'd be sure to steer clear. Not being a wise ass. I just don't see anything but a rather bland, and frankly boring, track (with the exception of #9).

The Goat is by invitation only ;), so no worries.
I can assure you, no one has ever called it boring. ;D ;D ;D


Jeff, it was not my intent to be insulting or snarky. I honestly just don't see what is special about this place, but as I admitted, I could be missing something here. Does the club serve great whiskey or beer or something?

BCowan

Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 10:50:32 PM »
Brian

   Jeff drinks Budweiser. 

BHoover

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Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2014, 10:53:14 PM »
Brian

   Jeff drinks Budweiser.  

Okay, so I'm definitely missing something. Perhaps I'm just not enlightened enough to appreciate this.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 10:55:38 PM by Brian Hoover »

jeffwarne

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Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2014, 11:17:25 PM »
photos by Jeff Warne   Shelter Island, NY

The single most important thing to remember about the Goat is that the greens are severely tilted and run about 5,and the fairways are alarmingly firm but sometimes compounded by the invasion of crabgrass which, like the country song, "if it weren't for crabgrass, I'd have no grass at all"
Course plays best with no grass and can be fiery.
there are NO boring approaches at The Goat

Clubhouse
As good as clubhouses get.The course is often empty, but the bar never is


#1 Tee-350 yards
Have the world left and green best approached from left, however,challenge the OB right on the Tiger line over the hill on the line of that ugly spruce about 200 out on the right and it can be driven under the right conditions.
 a decent line is towards the tree and bench left but left of that works too for those swings not yet properly lubricated ;). the actual green is in front of that tallest evergreen in the background, but the ground works hard right to left


#1 Green
The properly played pitch land 10-40 yards short and right


#2 Tee 400 Yards
One of the tougher tee shots in golf. Fairway slopes left to right, OB right, ground very firm and fast. Best shot a draw to hold fairway, though cagey players play down 3 fairway occasionally ;D


#2 Green from behind
From 150 out, besy shot is a punch 8-9 iron that carries 60-80 yards down the left side.
Newbies ALWAYs hit it over here due to extreme tilt away from approach angle.


#3 Tee-310 yards
Great opportunity to bomb it.
tee shot down left side preferred-can be driven under right circumstances


#3 Green
svere right to left tilt except narrow right and back shelf which are both tilted the other way severely.
All areas are pinned


#4 226 yards par 4!
blind tee shot over marker flag.
Broken ground for about 180, then severly downhill to severely sloped green away from player.
Greenie hole for closest in 2 ;)
Most severely tilted green at The Goat-didn't have picture ::)



#5 Tee  156 yards
photo doesn't do hole justice
left shelf, then severely tilted left to right slope.
miss left and suoer difficult chip.
Miss short or left and can easily roll long out of bounds.
veterans land chipped low shortiron 20-30 yards short and left and let funnel on.



#5 Green   from #3 tee (right of 5)


#6 Tee  180  ectra tall flagstick
Land it short left around 155. or fly to green.
Only tame green on course


#6 Green


#7 Tee  350 yards
Shared fairway with #8. hard ground and left to right fway slope dictate playing left towards #8, leaving very poor angle to green and slope running hard left to right and away from player.
newbies always hit it over and OB here


#7 Green  from 70 yards short and left

must land 30 yards short and left


#8  308 yards
"Skyline tee shot" must launch straight up to shared fairway with #7. Spine must be straddled perfectly to drive green.
Balls 5 feet left of spine can roll left into woods on 7, and balls right of spine stay right and don't reach green, but safer.
Pin position dictates best side of "fairway" to be on.
Can drive over  green into woods in firm or downwind conditions.


#8 Green from behind
Ball has to bounced or rolled 30-60 yards short of green. fascinating shot to watch develop,as are most approaches at the Goat.


#9 Tee 205 straight uphill
just launch something straight up and high --5 iron to 3 wood depending on conditions.
OB tight right, firm ground punishes miss left as well


#9 Green
After putting out on 9, refortify ;) ;D and use some of that knowledge you gained on first of many 9's you will play.
And remember, the goat is all about angles, running shots, tilt, judgement (or lack of ;)) and fun.
greens run about 5 yet downhill putts are lightning due to slope, and uphill putts are welll..reallly slow--which is the beauty of it.
 Tremendous breaks on putts if unlucky enough to be pin high due to tilt.




« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 12:25:15 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2014, 11:40:22 PM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Georgia caddie.  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2014, 11:44:59 PM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Georgia caddie.  ;)

Do you mean the personal beverage carts? ;) ;D ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2014, 12:21:41 AM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Georgia caddie.  ;)
Do you mean the personal beverage carts? ;) ;D ;D

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2014, 12:57:20 AM »
Am I missing something here? Why would I want to play this place, because after seeing these photos, I'd be sure to steer clear. Not being a wise ass. I just don't see anything but a rather bland, and frankly boring, track (with the exception of #9).

Brian,
Just curious.
Forget my later descriptions.
From the pictures first posted, without any yardages, how on earth could you describe this golf course as bland and boring?
All pictures of the 9 nine holes depict wildly heaving terrain, with mostly blind shots, and apparent brownish firm and fast conditions.
Admittedly, the pictures do not show the extreme amount of tilt on those greens, but you can certainly see movement around the greens in the pictures.

Not asking for an apology-I have no dog in this fight-and there are a variety of reasons why this course isn't many people's cup of tea(usually condition),
I just wonder what specifically you find boring or bland in the photos.

I mean if you start at # 1, you're elevated in front of an intimate clubhouse to a heaving tilted fairway, overlooking the Peconic bay-and it gets better from there.
 #2 is as good as any par 4 in The Hamptons-difficult tee shot-awesome second shot
 #3 is a classic driveable par 4 where position to approach is paramount due to tilt.
#4 is 226 blind to a sevely tilted ,semibowled green running away from the player (not pictured so you get a pass there)

I happen to think it's probably quite difficult to see greatness in the pictures without the descriptions, but I also think it's very hard to see the terrain as boring or bland.
perhaps we need to bring in my buddy Trump ;D ;D Maybe a large wind fountain in the peconic



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 03:14:20 AM »
Jeff, maybe it was simply seeing the photos without your descriptions, and the photos not doing it justice, that struck a nerve for me. I'm also not going to lie that the conditions didn't scream great course, at least to me. I'm normally not a stickler for conditions, but a Trump-esque fountain, or even a bunker to shoot at ( ::)), might be just the ticket here.

But you're right, the land itself isn't boring upon further reflection.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2014, 03:27:35 AM »
Brian,

not all good golf is about mind blowing GCA. I like the look of the course and the conditioning which fits the landscape. F&F and lots slope to contend with. What more can you want.

Nice tour Jeff/Ben

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2014, 03:35:55 AM »
Reminded me of Painswick. I can see why someone could love or hate it. I love the look but I suspect that a better golfer would think landing balls 40 yards short and relying on a wing and a prayer is shite.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2014, 03:55:50 AM »
This is a wonderful small scale course, as I have not seen many of in the US; In fact most courses like this can be found only on Sean Arble threads. Wonderful terrain, small greens, few bunkers, no manicure maintenance and endless opportunities to bump and run balls onto the green. A time machine experience surely. Old School golf!

The only eyesore is the buggy. True, I like to walk golf courses, but I am not an anti-ride crusader. However riding on this 9-holer? That spoils the time machine effect for me. I even saw parts of concrete cart paths on the course, please tell me these do not run along all of the holes on this classic little golf course.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2014, 04:55:49 AM »
A Marmite course? Love it or hate it? Me, I'd like to give it a go but I'm not adverse to quirk and prefer firm, fast, bouncey and eccentric golf. I could see how the course could seriously annoy some folk though. A good place for youngsters to learn to play I imagine. And I love the clubhouse. What a wonderful looking building.

Well done Ben/Jeff for posting and John for his related photo thread too - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55788.0.html

I'd like to see other threads about courses like this whether they be in the US or elsewhere around the globe.

atb

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2014, 07:51:57 AM »
I've spent time going round Jeff's "other" course with him and we discussed Goat Hills a good bit. These photos are precisely what I'd envisioned, thanks to his enthusiastic narrative.

I thought Brian Hoover's initial comment was sarcastic, then was thrilled to learn it wasn't. Intentional or not, he allowed a number of posters to offer reasons why that first impression was off-base. For all those who tip-toe with trepidation around a harsh call-out, don't! Fire your salvo; you may be correct or you might be just shy of enlightenment.

I love a blind tee shot. Unlike the saying "It's only blind the first time," that isn't my case. I tend to forget quickly (why I take so many photos) and need repeated re-education. In fact, sometimes I'll look at my photos and ask "how did that get in there? that's not that hole!" when in fact, it is.

Goat Hills would give me the same thrill I had going round Pine Crest (see the current Pine Crest thread here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57926.0.html). It seems to be pure and elementary golf, the type that is accessible in a region (eastern Long Island) with very expensive and exclusive private clubs, that just might turn a kid or twenty on to golf. Precisely what we and our sport/game need.
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Jeff Taylor

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Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2014, 09:02:29 AM »
My initial reaction dealt with the condition of the course. Then I had to consider how hard the ground was and then ponder where the ball must land in order to stop where it should. Suddenly I felt that the average golf shot by the average golfer was not going to get it done. The first play there must be brutal.
I like it.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2014, 09:04:50 AM »
As a lover of 9 hole courses, and for my fancy friends in The Hamptons and elsewhere, Jeff is a little too enthusiastic about Shelter Island Country Club aka Goat Hill. The rankings for 9 hole public courses on the East End of Long Island are:

1. Poxabogue - Hull did the course, and with a driving range, Dead Guy pedigree and a restaurant popular with Hipsters, it strikes a nice balance in the overdone Hamptons.

2. Sag Harbor Golf Course - Water views and cheap beer, made famous in a published book by a Harvard golfer who used it as his home course to play "professionally". I forget the book title, anyone?

3. SICC - well covered above, but also home to the after-party for the well-known Shelter Island 10K in June.

If Bridgehampton and Quoque were public, Goat Hill would not make Top 5 !

Let's be honest, how many have re-played Painswick since the GCA outing?

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2014, 09:45:04 AM »
I thought Brian Hoover's initial comment was sarcastic, then was thrilled to learn it wasn't. Intentional or not, he allowed a number of posters to offer reasons why that first impression was off-base. For all those who tip-toe with trepidation around a harsh call-out, don't! Fire your salvo; you may be correct or you might be just shy of enlightenment.

I stand by my original assertion that I have no interest in playing this place.  Sure, it might be on an interesting piece of land, but then I would ask why let a good piece of land go to waste with a ho-hum track?  

@Jon Wigget, I know that not all golf is about mind-blowing GCA.  I love F&F and contours and great land, etc. But I would rather experience those features on a course that interests me, and this does not do that, in my humble opinion.

I should just stop now because I can't win this argument...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 09:57:45 AM by Brian Hoover »

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2014, 09:54:55 AM »
I've spent a good amount of time on Shelter Island, and have been to Goat Hill several times.  In many ways, it provides so much of what is great about golf.  To say it is quaint is an understatement.  Traveling to Shelter Island always felt like going back in time, in a good way.  Goat Hill, along with Tuck Shop (ice cream) and The Chequit Inn (bar, restaurant, meeting place), among others, are wonderful places at the core of Shelter Island.  Additionally, as is often said here, special places are really made that way largely as a result of the people (employees, customers, owners, members...), and nowhere is that more the case than throughout Shelter Island. 

Bringing it back to gca, Goat Hill certainly has its share of interesting and fun shots.  The terrain is interesting and quirk is abundant.  It is plenty playable, which combined with the friendly environment, make it a nice place for beginners (kids, especially) to get out on the course with little to no pressure.  For players of all levels, it is a nice place for an evening round with buddies over a few beers.  Beyond the uber-desirable firm & fast, the conditions are terrible (plain and simple), but that really doesnít matter.  Nobody goes to Goat Hill for perfect grass or fast greens.

Brian,
not all good golf is about mind blowing GCA. I like the look of the course and the conditioning which fits the landscape. F&F and lots slope to contend with. What more can you want.
Nice tour Jeff/Ben

I agree with Jon, and I am glad to see tours of courses such as this one.  Having said all of these nice things, I would not spend the time or $ on the ferry specifically to play golf at Goat Hill.  It is a nice spot for so many reasons, but far from a reason alone to cross the harbor (even considering the proximity to the North Ferry).  Even with the majority of courses out East being very private, there are a handful of nearby public courses (walkable and reasonably priced) to which I would direct a first time visitor ahead of this spot.  In fact, I would argue this is the second best course in the US called Goat Hill (Oceanside, CA being first).  Just one manís opinion.
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Josh Tarble

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Re: Goat Hill (photo tour)
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2014, 10:08:02 AM »
I totally see what Brian Hoover is saying.

I do think the land is wild...not bland in the slightest.  However, I don't see anything there that I would consider exciting GCA besides #9.  It's just a collection of small greens routed up and over hills IMO.  I don't see anything here that is unusual, such as greens benched into the hillside, crowned on top of hills, utilizing the valleys of the hills, etc. 

I certainly appreciate the effort to put up a photo tour and am not even taking conditioning in account.  Actually, I'm sure the conditioning makes it a hilarious course to play (not a chance to land balls on greens, huge bounces in fairways, etc.) and it probably is fun to go around once.  But this is the type of course that gets FAR more credit than it deserves on GCA.   For comparisons sake, just look at the Arrowtown NZ thread.  Routed over similar terrain and you can see so much more variety and uniqueness there.


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