[BCowan]

It would be funny for if Gil Hanse said this was his favorite course, I am sure others would share similar opinions.

Umm, maybe. But it seems important to note that it's NOT Gil Hanse's favorite course. Gil Hanse didn't come into esteem by having poor taste. I would suggest it's more likely that if Gil Hanse's favorite courses were places like Goat Hill, no one would know who Gil Hanse was.I am not surprised by your response.

There's a middle ground here. I'd happily play Goat Hill if I was on the island and wanted to be outside on a nice evening. I wouldn't travel to Shetter Island just to play it though. And honestly Ben, neither would you. I'll wager a six-pack of your favorite "craft" on that. Put your money where your beer is and buy a plane ticket, or stop throwing around the term "bucket list" when you really mean "list of courses I like looking at pictures of online." It's offensive to people with terminal illness.I don't typically fly to play golf courses.  It is honestly a top course on my bucket list if I was in LI.  I would want to play it as much as the other top courses.  Your opinions and constant thread jacking is offensive to productive debates on the merits of golf arch.

There are THOUSANDS of courses like this around the country. Rock Creek in DC. Bogie (sic) Busters at Coal Ridge in Georgetown, KY. Dannebrog Golf Club. Spring Valley in Wisconsin. Anthony Gray's White Day. Tons of others. They are discussed appropriately. I enjoy looking at photos of them and learning more about them, but it's not about the course. It's about the soul of the game they represent. If you believe that what Goat Hill represents is significant, you're right on the money. But if you believe the course itself is worthy of even 10% of the architectural discussion devoted to its neighbors at Shinnecock and NGLA, then you're even more clueless than I've given you credit for, and I'm a jackass who loves to exaggerate so that's really saying something.I wouldn't of given Goat Hill the time of day 3 years ago, my tastes and outlook has changed.  The day GH receives 10% of what Shinney and NGLA do is the day GCA goes mad.

[Jason Thurman]

I hate to say it but I think there is a high probability that if Jeff had sent the photos to someone other than Ben to start a thread on Goat Hill, some of the negative posts wouldn't show up in the thread. The way that some make things personal on here is pretty disappointing, but that's really old hat isn't it?

Jeff's a successful golf teacher with a radio show. I'm guessing he didn't get where he is by being clueless about marketing. There's no hotter brand on this site right now than BCowan. With the course construction market still down, he might be the biggest name in GCA at the moment, period.

It's sort of like Ben's comment about how Goat Hill would be popular if it was Gil Hanse's favorite course. Is Hanse popular because of groupthink, or popular because he actually has good taste and creates good courses? I think the latter. Likewise, I don't think Ben draws disagreement because he's Ben. I think he draws disagreement because he continues to add to a history of commenting on courses he hasn't played, starting discussions that get threads deleted, throwing personal insults, and posting without proofreading. To his credit, he appears to be doing much better on the final item, and I don't see any reason to believe this thread is heading toward being deleted yet either. So he's got that going for him...

[Mark Fedeli]

how does Goat Hill compare to Highland Links in Truro? it seems they share some similarities, particularly in the routing and the looks off the tee. it's been a while, but i remember HL's greens being relatively flat and unnecessarily slow.

[Alex Miller]

On topic, I haven't met Jeff, but I like his taste in golf courses. Matter of fact, on the morning I was driving out to play Sebonack last summer, I had the idea in my head that I would stop and play Goat Hill. Keith O'Halloran advised me not to attempt it only because the ferry schedule might not be in my favor and we didn't want to risk being late for our afternoon round. I still think I could've made it.

+1 to Jeff's tastes seemingly being in line with my own as well, and -1 to Keith 


I should probably post this in the post GCA tastes thread, but this course would have drawn a much different reaction from me 5 years ago than today. I wouldn't put it on my bucket list, but these photos leave me with a strong desire to play here because it looks FUN. It may not be polished like many of the favorites on here, but it's also left alone - unharmed, if you will. I've played Torrey dozens of times and the criticism is deserved in my eyes. Courses with seemingly great sites that become muddled with bunker after bunker and fairway after fairway that all look like they could be transplanted to other sites and slide right in with another course become boring and repetitive. Now playing golf at Torrey is pleasant as can be without the course considered, and I by no means hate the course itself, but there are MANY ways it could be improved (we're talking South here).

What I see at Goat Hill that makes me want to play it isn't easy to put a finger on. I guess it just looks unspoiled. Even if "all" that was done on that site was routing and creating the 9th green, one of the things I've learned is that creating an interesting course solely from the routing is damn special. Obviously Goat Hill isn't making any top 100 lists anytime soon, but through the pictures and Jeff's descriptions I can tell that it would definitely hold my interest. I already have a healthy dose of well-irrigated, "well"-bunkered, and "well"-shaped golf courses at my disposal; I think we could all use a little more Goat Hill.

[Brian Finn]

I feel compelled to re-state that I think Goat Hill is a really fun course.  In post #24, I was mostly trying to state all that was great about the place.  I added the last few comments to represent that I am being balanced in my commentary.  Perhaps it was unnecessary to do so, but I felt compelled.  I simply don't feel it is quite worth the time and money to take the ferry over, just to play the course.  If anyone else on this discussion group had played there and felt that way, I would want to hear from them before I went out of my way to play here.

I want to apologize for taking a personal shot at BCowan in public.  Whether or not I agree with his opinions on this course or any other, that was the wrong thing to do.  Rather than deleting posts, I will just go on the record as saying sorry. 

Lastly, I am a big believer in the value of actually having been to a golf course to comment on its quality.  Nobody here can debate that walking a course and/or playing it (perhaps several times) provides more substance than photos in forming an opinion.  I too love to look at photos of places I have never played and think of how they might play.  I just do my best not to comment on courses that I haven't been to, but I understand others have different views. 

[Eric Smith]

Also, way to drop the "When I played Sebonack, Pookie" on us unfortunate sorts.

Pinkie finger extended at a 75* angle whilst sipping fine champagne from the lido deck..

[Jason Topp]

I would play it. I love places like this.

[Jason Thurman]

  I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''.  Nice try Brian.  One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something.  Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.  

Ben, I must remind you that back in September I asked you, in person, about your thoughts on the 17th at St. Andrews. At least ten members of this forum were in the room. You stated "I can't comment on it. I don't know what I would think of it, because I haven't seen it in person."

I don't recall the conversation and the way in which you are framing it, not questioning your honesty  I'll tell you right now #17 at TOC seems like a very interesting hole and is talked about across the world.  It is interesting to have learned that it used to be a par 5.  Why don't you bring up the conversation, ''the whole'' conversation''

We were discussing the 13th at Kingsley. You said the bunker fronting the green should be removed because it challenges players who try to run a ball onto the putting surface without employing great precision. I'm paraphrasing, of course, as you obviously didn't use those exact words. I tried to think of another hole with a bunker that challenges players who play an imprecise run-up, and the first one that came to mind was the 17th at St. Andrews. It's not the best example, but I was thinking slowly by my standards. You deflected the question like a pro by offering the response quoted above.

It is honestly a top course on my bucket list if I was in LI.  I would want to play it as much as the other top courses.[/color]

I hope someone reading this offers you free rounds at both National and Goat Hill. If you choose Goat Hill over National, I'll also give you another six-pack of your favorite "craft" in addition to the six-pack already promised if you ever play Goat Hill in the first place. That's a whole 12 pack of "craft," if you're counting. Let me know if you'd like to mix and match. I'm also happy to send you a whole case if you just prefer them all in one box. Goat Hill looks like a wonderful place to drink them, actually.

Can anyone who has played it comment on their beverage policy? I do enjoy playing courses like this, and the 9th green seems like a great amphitheater to sit and drink with the sun going down and make snarky comments as people miss bogey putts.

The day GH receives 10% of what Shinney and NGLA do is the day GCA goes mad. [/color]

I'm glad we agree on this point.

[Ronald Montesano]

Also, way to drop the "When I played Sebonack, Pookie" on us unfortunate sorts.

Pinkie finger extended at a 75* angle whilst sipping fine champagne from the lido deck..

Thus is the greatness of Smith.

[Ronald Montesano]

how does Goat Hill compare to Highland Links in Truro? it seems they share some similarities, particularly in the routing and the looks off the tee. it's been a while, but i remember HL's greens being relatively flat and unnecessarily slow.

Mark...HL's greens ARE relatively flat. Great memory you have.

In my current and well-received thread on Pine Crest (I'm in negotiations to morph it into a TedEX talk) found here (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57926.0.html), one of the distinguishing, excellent elements of Pine Crest is the movement o'the greens.

However, Jeff does suggest that there is movement on the greens of the goat.

[Sean_A]

I finally get to see Goat Hill    The course looks okay to me.  The kicker would be the green fee - cheap and cheerful would sell me - $50 would turn me cold.  I am not sure its the sort of thng I would drive well out of my way for, but as a comfortable stop and have go I think it works fine.  The thing with these sorts of places is that every onece in a while you hit on a keeper and to find that out you need to turn up and have a go.  I can fully understand where jeff is coming from in terms of a place growing on one.  It took me some time before the penny dropped concerning Kington, but now its my favourite course on the planet.  Some places just need to work into the skin.

Thanks for the pix Ben and Jeff.

Ciao   

[BCowan]

  I never said ''to say that some of us just don't get it''.  Nice try Brian.  One can use their imagination to decide whether or not they like something.  Classic ''Have you played it", oh you can't comment on it GCA response.  

Ben, I must remind you that back in September I asked you, in person, about your thoughts on the 17th at St. Andrews. At least ten members of this forum were in the room. You stated "I can't comment on it. I don't know what I would think of it, because I haven't seen it in person.Well at the time I was at a loss for words.

I don't recall the conversation and the way in which you are framing it, not questioning your honesty  I'll tell you right now #17 at TOC seems like a very interesting hole and is talked about across the world.  It is interesting to have learned that it used to be a par 5.  Why don't you bring up the conversation, ''the whole'' conversation''

We were discussing the 13th at Kingsley. You said the bunker fronting the green should be removed because it challenges players who try to run a ball onto the putting surface without employing great precision. I'm paraphrasing, of course, as you obviously didn't use those exact words. I tried to think of another hole with a bunker that challenges players who play an imprecise run-up, and the first one that came to mind was the 17th at St. Andrews. It's not the best example, but I was thinking slowly by my standards. You deflected the question like a pro by offering the response quoted above."One is a long par 4, that used to be a par 5.  The other is a drivable par 4.  are they really similar?  I possibly did deflect the answer when discussing TOC

It is honestly a top course on my bucket list if I was in LI.  I would want to play it as much as the other top courses.[/color]

I hope someone reading this offers you free rounds at both National and Goat Hill. If you choose Goat Hill over National, I'll also give you another six-pack of your favorite "craft" in addition to the six-pack already promised if you ever play Goat Hill in the first place. That's a whole 12 pack of "craft," if you're counting. Let me know if you'd like to mix and match. I'm also happy to send you a whole case if you just prefer them all in one box. Goat Hill looks like a wonderful place to drink them, actually.That it does

Can anyone who has played it comment on their beverage policy? I do enjoy playing courses like this, and the 9th green seems like a great amphitheater to sit and drink with the sun going down and make snarky comments as people miss bogey putts.

The day GH receives 10% of what Shinney and NGLA do is the day GCA goes mad. [/color]

I'm glad we agree on this point.

[BCowan]

Jeff's a successful golf teacher with a radio show. I'm guessing he didn't get where he is by being clueless about marketing. There's no hotter brand on this site right now than BCowan. With the course construction market still down, he might be the biggest name in GCA at the moment, period.Thurman you do more to derail threads than anyone.  I don't do construction anymore, it was a great learning experience.  I am not going to sit and have some rank greens committee person like yourself tell me I don't know anything about drainage!

It's sort of like Ben's comment about how Goat Hill would be popular if it was Gil Hanse's favorite course. Is Hanse popular because of groupthink, or popular because he actually has good taste and creates good courses? I think the latter. Likewise, I don't think Ben draws disagreement because he's Ben. I think he draws disagreement because he continues to add to a history of commenting on courses he hasn't played, starting discussions that get threads deleted, throwing personal insults, and posting without proofreading. To his credit, he appears to be doing much better on the final item, and I don't see any reason to believe this thread is heading toward being deleted yet either. So he's got that going for him...Thurman, ''nobody remembers when you are right, but everybody remembers when you are wrong''  I never said Goat Hill should be liked by all or that Belvedere and Lawsonia were top 100!  You don't add personal insults, really?  Who calls people dumb all the time?  Responding to you is such a waste of time

[BCowan]

Brian

   Thank You. 

okay lets get back to the golf course.  People who have played and people who haven't. 

[Mark Saltzman]

On topic, I haven't met Jeff, but I like his taste in golf courses.

Bingo.  Reason enough to play it, no matter what it looks like in photos.

[Mark Fedeli]

how does Goat Hill compare to Highland Links in Truro? it seems they share some similarities, particularly in the routing and the looks off the tee. it's been a while, but i remember HL's greens being relatively flat and unnecessarily slow.

Mark...HL's greens ARE relatively flat. Great memory you have.

In my current and well-received thread on Pine Crest (I'm in negotiations to morph it into a TedEX talk) found here (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57926.0.html), one of the distinguishing, excellent elements of Pine Crest is the movement o'the greens.

However, Jeff does suggest that there is movement on the greens of the goat.

Pine Crest looks like an absolute blast to play. great stuff there.

yeah, I would've loved to have seen more interesting greens at HL and more F&F conditions, something the Goat doesn't seem to be lacking. the scenery at HL makes up for it a bit, though. same goes for Watkins Glen and its views of Seneca Lake.

[Jason Thurman]

Ben, I'm not big on name-calling. If you can find an example where I called someone dumb on this forum, I'll send you another six-pack of your favorite craft. If you find it on your smartphone while playing Goat Hill after turning down an NGLA invitation, that's 18 beers I'll be sending you. Calling someone a moron in the GCA Mucci Moron context doesn't count, nor does pointing out the inherent stupidity in an idea. I sometimes get off on tangents, it's true. But you're welcome to disrupt any thread of mine to offer me beer.

But back to Goat Hill, can you (or anyone else) talk a bit more about why you think Goat Hill has architectural significance and is worthy of further discussion on this site? I can see that the property is interesting. I can see that the ground game is alive. I hear the surrounding views are nice. As I said earlier, I understand that it represents something pure and that alone is significant beyond what's on the ground, but this site exists to discuss the latter. What is the significance of the architecture on the ground?

[BCowan]

''unsurprising lack of contextual understanding''- Doral thread post 215.

   I am not going to spend all day digging up Thurman responses and how much you look down at others you don't agree with.  I have enough craft, but thanks.  back to the goat! 

[jeffwarne]

As a lover of 9 hole courses, and for my fancy friends in The Hamptons and elsewhere, Jeff is a little too enthusiastic about Shelter Island Country Club aka Goat Hill. The rankings for 9 hole public courses on the East End of Long Island are:

1. Poxabogue - Hull did the course, and with a driving range, Dead Guy pedigree and a restaurant popular with Hipsters, it strikes a nice balance in the overdone Hamptons.

2. Sag Harbor Golf Course - Water views and cheap beer, made famous in a published book by a Harvard golfer who used it as his home course to play "professionally". I forget the book title, anyone?

3. SICC - well covered above, but also home to the after-party for the well-known Shelter Island 10K in June.

If Bridgehampton and Quoque were public, Goat Hill would not make Top 5 !

Let's be honest, how many have re-played Painswick since the GCA outing?

Mike,
Is that a serious post?
rankings? really?
I'm a member of Sag Harbor  GC and NEVER play there. Dead flat terrain , boring greens 1/2 the size of the Goat. Stupid trees everywhere, Africa deep lost ball small corridors. To be fair though the course has far more credibility and integrity than the "harvard" author you reference)
and it's much grassier and greener than Goat Hill due to snuck in irrigation, but I would not consider the conditions better.
Poxabogue is a bunch of par 3'' and a couple simple 300 yard flat par 4's.Have you seriously played it? Zero drivers?-maybe 1?

I often play Qougue and Bridgehampton, and while both are well conditioned and good, and have some architectural meirit(both have pretty interesting greens), I'd say the Goat is far more strategic but t be fair those other two are very solid 9 hole courses.

I've played The Goat over 300 times, haven't yet been to Painswick

[Peter Pallotta]

I'd never heard of the course and just got to the profile/thread this morning. After a few photos, I would've guessed it was somewhere in England, except that something was slightly off -- the sky, maybe, or the lack of Colt-styled bunkers, or the quality of the light and of the vegetation. But overall, it has the same feeling to me that Sean's modest English courses do, i.e. as if someone had casually draped a course over the land, and then not struggled too hard to try to make it 'right' -- an ease and a simplicity (of design/intent and presentation and playability) that just makes me feel calm and happy and seems to me all that golf needs to be. Not surprised that someone would play it 300 times -- why not? To paraphrase an old line, it offers as much golf as any reasonable man can reasonably expect to enjoy.

[jeffwarne]

how does Goat Hill compare to Highland Links in Truro? it seems they share some similarities, particularly in the routing and the looks off the tee. it's been a while, but i remember HL's greens being relatively flat and unnecessarily slow.

back to architecture

Highland Links I've only played 3 times in 3 different decades so I'm a bit fuzzy.
first, it has several true links holes that are scenic, linksy and the real deal. great feel to the place high above the ocean.
A few pedestrian holes, but to be fair my experience there is pre GCA and perhaps I didn't notice few subtleties.

I really like Highland Links, and it definitely has better turf including the greens ,(edit evidently they are flat )though The Goat's putt very true, they are slow and should be with all the tilt, they are also springy or spongy due to infrequent aerification, but not soft.

Tough call as I like both, but Highland Links as a scenic semi links experience, Goat Hill as a more interesting test.


To summarize Goat Hill, with the exception of #2 (which is still 40-50 yards wide), there is a ton of available width at Goat Hill, the terrain, greenslopes, and firmness are the hazards, and being out of position on the tee shot is its own clever penalty.

Minimalism? check
terrain? check
variety? check
blindness, yet "educated visibility" check
strategy ? check
Ground game? check +
cool vibe/clubhouse? check
Interesting? check
greens FULL of character that politely request tee shot placement to take advantage of them?  Check

circa 1897 -the clubhouse was rolled up "Goat Hill" on logs after being moved from another location

No one has to love or like The Goat, but to suggest courses such as Goat Hill get too much attention on here is ludicrous.
The greatest thing on this site are the photo tours, esp of unknown places by the likes of Sean Arble.

Thanks to Ben Cowan who posted these pics for me.
I'm still laughing at the poster who suggested I had him post for marketing reasons
I've been hiding for 18 years

[jeffwarne]

I finally get to see Goat Hill    The course looks okay too me.  The kicker would be the green fee - cheap and cheerful would sell me - $50 would turn me cold.  I am not sure its the sort of thng I would drive well out of my way for, but as a comfortable stop and have go I think it works fine.  The thing with these sorts of places is that every onece in a while you hit on a keeper and to find that out you need to turn up and have a go.  I can fully understand where jeff is coming from in terms of a place growing on one.  It took me some time before the penny dropped concerning Kington, but now its my favourite course on the planet.  Some places just need to work into the skin.

Thanks for the pix Ben and Jeff.

Ciao    

You're in luck Sean
$21 for 18, $15 for 9

I must say I'm pissed though.
Went to the website to find those prices and I read "foursomes who ride the north or south ferry only need to play for Three players"
I've been frequenting the place for nearly 20 years, and paying full boat for foursomes +cart and no one has EVER mentioned that,
let's hope that's a new policy......

Sean,
the Goat is perfect as an afternoon stop after Gardiner's Bay or even better arrived at by Boat, though there have been some interesting adventures returning home in the dark after a few interesting diversions and detours

[Sean_A]

You're in luck Sean
$21 for 18, $15 for 9

I must say I'm pissed though.
Went to the website to find those prices and I read "foursomes who ride the north or south ferry only need to play for Three players"
I've been frequenting the place for nearly 20 years, and paying full boat for foursomes +cart and no one has EVER mentioned that,
let's hope that's a new policy......


...or consider the over-payments well intended donations?  

Well yes, $15 to have a go is a bit of a no brainer if in the area.  The real question then becomes if there is a local hostel which is included in the green fee  

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

no hostel, but just down the road is a rather chi chi nouveaux riche establishment which sells $12 drinks where an assistant of mine spent the night in a hammock

[Keith OHalloran]

Here are the caveats to my statements:
1. I have played Goat Hill
2. I have not played or studied it nearly as much as Jeff has
3. No one cares what I think
4. Jeff definitely likes "these type" of courses more than I do.

That being said, GH is the type of course you play, have fun, and get into a state that in unsuitable for architectural study, which is fine because it may be unworthy of architectural study.
The world needs ditch diggers too.

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