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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
I'm noticing what once was a tactic of only one or two posters starting to become a trend, and I think it's badly damaging to the nature of discussion on this forum. I suspect we're all guilty of doing it from time to time. I know I have. But I think it's time we thought a little more critically about what it actually does.

I'm referring to the tactic of dissecting a post when replying to it, such that the replier responds sentence-by-sentence instead of replying to the entire thought. The result looks something like this.

Quote from: Person A
So I've been thinking, and I have a compelling idea. Your idea isn't as compelling as you think. My thesis is that if we could do X, then Y would happen. X is unrealistic and Y is not important. The result of this would be a greater good in the world. Good is subjective. The world is full of pain. My club has recently implemented such a program and it has worked well, No club has ever implemented such a policy. as evidenced by our membership growth of 10% since last year. Don't go using your fancy numbers. I have enough observational experience to prove that your idea is stupid.

This tactic probably makes the replier feel like they've won the Internet, since it effectively cripples the original poster's ability to even make a coherent reply. In reality though, it tends to kill threads and undermine intelligent discussion. Show me a thread where dissection has been employed with regularity, and I'll show you a thread where unintelligible discussion has chased away all intelligent posts, if the thread has survived at all.

I think about it in the context of a real-life conversation. Employing the tactic referenced is akin to interrupting someone after every single sentence, which would land you somewhere on the spectrum between ostracized and punched. On the Internet, it somehow seems less rude on the surface and the risks aren't quite as severe. The outcome on the discussion, though, is nonetheless the same - taking people out of context constantly ultimately destroys intelligent discourse.

Now, I'm fully aware that there are times when it's appropriate to examine a post point-by-point. I'm not saying that I think it's a tactic with no place. Anticipating future posts on this thread, I'm not seeking to "coerce" anyone into ceasing to use the tactic. I'll also address the elephant in the room - this thread isn't about Pat Mucci. He invented the damn technique as far as I can tell, and that gives him license to use it. My complaint is more with its growing prevalence and situations in which it either advertently or inadvertently kills a thread, because that sucks.

I'm simply posting as one adult among a community of 1500 adults, and asking if we can be a bit more judicious about dissecting. It's in the best interest of the forum and in the best interest of our community. GCA.com has become a pretty recognized brand and a voice of influence, and when we fail to sound like coherent thinkers we undermine that influence. I can't stop anyone from using it, but the odds of me ditching a discussion and finding someone else to talk to are pretty high if you employ it irresponsibly in a thread I'm participating in. I have no interest in trying to win the Internet, after all, and if we were sitting at a bar having the same discussion and I was interrupted after every sentence, I'd gracefully excuse myself and go talk to one of the other 1498 people in the room. I figure I should do the same here, and I encourage fellow posters who are getting exhausted to do the same.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 12:03:56 AM by Jason Thurman »
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2014, 09:51:14 PM »
Yes it's OT and not worthy of dissection, in any color font.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2014, 10:27:22 PM »
Jason,

Great post and I agree.  Total thread killer.  I mean, who wants to be the guy that gets inked?  No one.  So they either don't post, or now take an hour to write 4 paragraphs...making sure...oh yes, "Ross did use a bowl and brush, not shave soap and water in his hand"...I went to Tufts and Ms. Audrey verified it in this still from 1936.

I am not saying we need to share mis-information and it shouldn't be called, but the civility sometimes and the 'who's got the bigger one' contest, when it would be more helpful if the tone were educational...would grow the knowledge and participation ultimately. 

Joe

https://pillarsofgolf.wordpress.com

"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide". - Mike Nuzzo

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2014, 10:39:25 PM »
Joe, that's really what I'm getting at. I'm all for calling people out. I'm all for telling someone their idea is stupid. Just don't do it in a format that makes it impossible for them to reply while still keeping subsequent posts legible.

And like I said, sometimes it's appropriate. But when you're just breaking something down sentence by sentence when a paragraph-format response would make more sense, then that's lame.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2014, 11:14:54 PM »
Son, step away from the keyboard. If you want to discuss etiquette, perhaps self examination is required.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2014, 11:22:37 PM »
Jason

There is no stupid idea to that individual.
Everyone is entitled to their own preference especially when it comes to golf.

I wish every invalidating and bullying poster would leave this forum today.
Frankly I am sick of all the badgering and bullying.

Peace
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2014, 11:56:34 PM »
Garland, there's no doubt that I'm a total jackass. I would never deny that. I do make it a point, though, that anyone wishing to point out what a jackass I was in a given post can do so without spending 25 minutes weeding through BBCode tags and trying to make sure their reply vaguely resembles written English.

I'm not advocating getting rid of jackassery. Many of my favorite posters are jackasses like me. I love reading their posts, and I love arguing with them. I even enjoy arguing with you. It just sucks when it stops being about intellect and starts being about who's more willing to go through the BBCode tag war of attrition. It especially sucks for those not in the conversation. You'll notice they start disappearing when the posts start incorporating three or more font colors.

Michael's joke gets funnier every time you post it.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2014, 12:14:35 AM »
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57757.250.html   -256 replies with multi colors

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57770.150.html   -157 replies with multi colors

     Why don't you just come out and say it?  Some find it easier to respond to sentences and it gets to the point quicker.  Sometimes people prefer to reply that way, other times in paragraph form.  Whatever works for the poster.  ''Reply Etiquette''.  People respond either nicely or in a nasty way and they can do it in the paragraph structure or sentence for sentence.  Some just thread jack threads with smart ass responses.  This is more or less a personal style.  The above threads prove your observation wrong.  If the substance of multi color responses are poor, people will stop posting.  If the substance is good they will reply. 

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2014, 12:22:04 AM »
Is this really a big problem? I think guys do it as a way to respond "point by point" to a post.

But I find those color-coded responses very annoying and hard to read, so I rarely read them. I assume many others are like me and ignore those responses.

If I'm gonna get ripped, I'd much rather have it come from a "color coded sentence inserter" rather than someone like PPallota who can REALLY write and destroy me in a properly constructed paragraph...

« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 12:56:22 AM by Bill Brightly »

J.D. Griffith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2014, 12:29:29 AM »
Not to mention it makes the thread that much longer because there is so much cut and paste action in the thread. 
One single quote?  Not a problem.  But a diatribe with cut and paste, and four different shades of font makes us all look like morons.

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2014, 12:40:12 AM »
Och now Bill,

"…someone like PPollata who can REALLY write and destroy me in a properly constructed paragraph…"

Surely it is only good reply etiquette to spell the name of a wordsmith like Peter Pallotta correctly!!!!!!

Jeeze I hope I have it spelled correctly!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2014, 12:48:42 AM »
Gimme a break Colin, it's past midnight on this side of the ocean... I was lazy and took a shot at the spelling of Peter's name without checking! :) I fixed it. But YOU knew who I meant, right? Remember, Americans have no qualms about changing a letter or two in the King's English when it suits us...
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 12:57:56 AM by Bill Brightly »

noonan

Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2014, 01:05:40 AM »
The color green is an issue :)

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2014, 02:36:46 AM »
As an Irishman I object to the way the colour green has been brought into disrepute in such threads.

Also those lengthy ripostes, while sometimes containing reasonable points among the tirade of bullshit, just scream ' Me, me, me' so much.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2014, 03:48:57 AM »
I can only speak for myself, but as soon as it gets to a few coloured quotes I don't read the posts.  Its too hard to dicipher who wrote what - I even think the posters get confused at times.  I don't care for the line by line response style either, but I ignore that as well.  I think once it gets a handful of posts into that level its basically a one on one conversation and thats fine.  There isn't much point in asking Mucci to knock off his nonsense because he has been doing it forever and will not stop. The man wants to wind people up more than anything.  So we may as well just carry on. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2014, 04:23:28 AM »
I've only been here a short time, however I do find it surprising how openly rude people are to each other. A few acting like this without moderation does, it seems, lead to others posting in the same manner thinking that is the status quo.

As a rule, I think the best way is speak to someone how you would in person. Where I'm from, if you act or speak in such a way as some do here, you can expect violence rather than green ink.

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2014, 04:41:03 AM »
I can only speak for myself, but as soon as it gets to a few coloured quotes I don't read the posts.  Its too hard to dicipher who wrote what - I even think the posters get confused at times.  I don't care for the line by line response style either, but I ignore that as well.  I think once it gets a handful of posts into that level its basically a one on one conversation and thats fine.  There isn't much point in asking Mucci to knock off his nonsense because he has been doing it forever and will not stop. The man wants to wind people up more than anything.  So we may as well just carry on. 

Ciao

My wife is a psychiatrist and she often describes scenarios when it is obvious that someone is going off the rails but little can be done about it because they have no insight. Until it all crashes spectacularly. Hitting bottom, as Americans say.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2014, 04:54:08 AM »
Ryan - I agree the forum needs a moderator. I left a year or so ago because I ran into an argument with Patrick Mucci and I just stood away and thought what am I doing arguing with an idiot. He is a troll, he gets his kicks winding people up and as was explained to me by someone on here who pursuaded me to come back..Trolls will go away if you don't feed them. The people that feed him are as much to blame, it is better as soon as he starts his green ink to not reply, if you want to irritate him that is the best attack. I met a lot of nice Americans and a few really rude ones. I guess he is that older version of a 4 year old kid that liked to kick someone else's sandcastle over.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2014, 05:02:16 AM »
Ryan - I agree the forum needs a moderator. I left a year or so ago because I ran into an argument with Patrick Mucci and I just stood away and thought what am I doing arguing with an idiot. He is a troll, he gets his kicks winding people up and as was explained to me by someone on here who pursuaded me to come back..Trolls will go away if you don't feed them. The people that feed him are as much to blame, it is better as soon as he starts his green ink to not reply, if you want to irritate him that is the best attack. I met a lot of nice Americans and a few really rude ones. I guess he is that older version of a 4 year old kid that liked to kick someone else's sandcastle over.


+1

Those who do suck up to him couldn't possibly be hoping for access, could they?


Shame, because occasionally  he can't help himself sharing some of the many wonderful experiences and knowledge he's gained from a great life in golf.  If only he could avoid his dark side, which brings the tone of the place down and keeps many wise people away.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 05:04:47 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2014, 07:51:56 AM »
Ryan - I agree the forum needs a moderator. I left a year or so ago because I ran into an argument with Patrick Mucci and I just stood away and thought what am I doing arguing with an idiot. He is a troll, he gets his kicks winding people up and as was explained to me by someone on here who pursuaded me to come back..Trolls will go away if you don't feed them. The people that feed him are as much to blame, it is better as soon as he starts his green ink to not reply, if you want to irritate him that is the best attack. I met a lot of nice Americans and a few really rude ones. I guess he is that older version of a 4 year old kid that liked to kick someone else's sandcastle over.


+1

Those who do suck up to him couldn't possibly be hoping for access, could they?


Shame, because occasionally  he can't help himself sharing some of the many wonderful experiences and knowledge he's gained from a great life in golf.  If only he could avoid his dark side, which brings the tone of the place down and keeps many wise people away.

I played golf with Pat and his son in Yale and found him great company.

I fully intend to suck up to him in the hope of gaining access in the future... Primarily because I'd like to play with him again... and because I'm guilt free because I reckon I could gain access using my own steam if I wanted to...

I do find the single sentence, multi-coloured replies tiresome though... Like Sean, it tends to drive me away from certain threads...

Ally

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2014, 07:56:53 AM »
Once you remove Pat who will be next?  Don't you have a Facebook page to post your pictures, set up your next trip and brag about the last one?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2014, 08:04:26 AM »
Once you remove Pat who will be next?  Don't you have a Facebook page to post your pictures, set up your next trip and brag about the last one?

Jaka

I am not suggesting removing Pat from the site; not sure anybody else is either.  I think many wish Pat would tone down his style; give us a break.  That, however, is not Pat's bag.  He enjoys being obtuse and arguing the toss to wind people up.  For whatever reason(s), Pat consider that entertainment.  We all know what he is up to, but some can't help themselves.  So its up to those who want to avoid him to do so.  Its not much different to the rest of life.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2014, 08:22:13 AM »
I've only been here a short time, however I do find it surprising how openly rude people are to each other. A few acting like this without moderation does, it seems, lead to others posting in the same manner thinking that is the status quo.

As a rule, I think the best way is speak to someone how you would in person. Where I'm from, if you act or speak in such a way as some do here, you can expect violence rather than green ink.

I'd actually agree as I've always lived by the principle that I won't say anything to someone behind their back that I wouldn't have the guts to say to Pat, sorry, them to their face. And any argument that people are charming in person only lessens my opinion of them.

For my part I plead guilty to Mucci Baiting. I do however opt out at such a point that I feel the abuse I'm receiving is completely lacking in any sense. We all have our cut off points and, like Sean, whilst I've never argued for Pat to be removed, he could be of so much more value if he learnt to accept an opposing view. I thought a few months ago he had toned it down and was behaving quite well. But now.....
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2014, 08:59:36 AM »
Good one, we now have the sequel to the "Trolls are everyday sadists" thread.  :P

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT, unless you think frank discussion is on topic: Reply Etiquette
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2014, 09:04:18 AM »
I have argued lots of times with Sean, Mark Pearce and Jon Wiggett. I consider them all friends. I have met Sean a couple of times, and have Mark Pearce as a facebook friend and want to see Jon's course (it is just a long way up). It is a discussion group and if we all agreed on everything it would be a waste of time. Grasses behave differently in different places it is good to get both sides sometimes, I find this site educational and expect many of the bigger names do too, I know I have learned. It is a shame the Pat behaves as he does, maybe he will see this thread and change, lots of people say he is a great bloke 'live'. There was a chap on here that lost his job for his internet comments, some people get weird behind a steering wheel and I guess some with a keyboard. This site has a huge amount of onlookers as well that use this for resource. How often do we hear "I want to be a golf course architect, what should I do"...well there might be some do's and don'ts but being part of this group is a good DO. It is a shame that people leave this site, driven away by what amounts to trolling. Not having a moderator is a weak part about this great forum.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

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