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MCirba

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2023, 06:31:00 PM »
Good insight, fellows...thanks.


Is Lake Chabot walkable?   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2023, 06:35:22 PM »
Is Lake Chabot walkable?
If you have to ask, it's probably not. I play with a push cart there, but i'm in my early 40s and it can still be quite tiring sometimes. It also depends on the season, as the summer months can be very hot out there, whereas in SF proper, it'll always be cool enough for pants on the course.
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2023, 06:40:32 PM »
Good insight, fellows...thanks.

Is Lake Chabot walkable?

Mike,

Its a very tough walk but its doable.  I used to walk it, but I was in my 20s, couldn't do it now.

P.S.  If you don't have a tee time, make sure to drive in very slowly, you literally drive straight thru 3 or 4 fairways on the way in.  ;)

MCirba

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2023, 06:47:23 PM »
Thanks!   Would love to hear others 10 round split (using whatever factors are most important to them) between Presidio and Harding and then perhaps throw Lake Chabot into the mix, although the idea of playing all three may be stretching my stay beyond what's good for my domestic life.  ;)

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Matt MacIver

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2023, 08:49:07 PM »
Thanks!   Would love to hear others 10 round split (using whatever factors are most important to them) between Presidio and Harding and then perhaps throw Lake Chabot into the mix, although the idea of playing all three may be stretching my stay beyond what's good for my domestic life.  ;)


With only one play on the the first two listed, in 2022, I would put Presido well ahead of HP, like 8-2.  But then I like quirk and rolling and fun.  And for the price difference it goes 9-1 easy for me.

MCirba

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2023, 09:11:57 PM »
[quote author=Matt MacIver link=topic=57430.msg1730283#msg1730283 date=1685234947


With only one play on the the first two listed, in 2022, I would put Presido well ahead of HP, like 8-2.  But then I like quirk and rolling and fun.  And for the price difference it goes 9-1 easy for me.



Quirk, rolling, and fun.


You're talking my language, Matt...thanks!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2023, 12:45:11 AM »
Is Lake Chabot walkable?
If you have to ask, it's probably not. I play with a push cart there, but i'm in my early 40s and it can still be quite tiring sometimes. It also depends on the season, as the summer months can be very hot out there, whereas in SF proper, it'll always be cool enough for pants on the course.


Lake Chabot never gets that hot.  It is in the Oakland Hills...not out where it gets warm.  Claremont CC doesn't allow shorts, and it is a similar climate as Chabot.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tim Leahy

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2023, 02:11:35 AM »
If you have never played Lake Chabot you should because of all the memorable holes and uniqueness. The bag tag used to have a mountain goat on it, so unless your in great shape you will need a cart but it's worth it. 9th hole is a 100ft + drop shot par 3. Great elevated tee shots. From one of the holes on the back you can see the whole bay and both bridges on a clear day. 18th is/was a 662 yd par 6 all down hill and can be reached in 2 when the fairways are firm. Plaque on the hole tells of long driving champion who used a real water hose as a driver shaft back in the day. ;D
Always loved Presidio but it was the softest course in SF and the slowest round on the weekend at least.
Really enjoy Harding since the redo and even as a 15 hcp the last time I played there it wasn't that difficult and playing through the forest of giant trees is special.
I would split the 3, LC 4, HP 3, Pr 2 and Lincoln Park 1, just for the 17th hole view. 8)
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

David_Tepper

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2023, 07:39:12 AM »
Greetings from the bonnie Highlands of Scotland. I am here for a few weeks playing a lot of (bad) golf. As you might imagine, I was a little surprised when I woke up this morning to see that this thread from 10 years ago has come back to life. I am also a little surprised to see the number of recent comments (especially to see how people prefer Presidio to Harding :) ).

I was a member of the Presidio GC from 1983 to 1999. I must have played the course 500 or more times back then. I live a dozen or so blocks away and still go there once or twice a week to chip/putt or use the range. I have probably lived within a mile radius of the course for the past 40+ years.

Here is some background info that might be of interest:

1) The 1956 Western Open was played at the Presidio. There was a 4-way tie for first at 4-under. Mike Fetchik beat Doug Ford, Jay Hebert and Don January (who recently passed away at 94 years) in the playoff.

2) The group that went on to become the San Francisco Golf Club first started playing golf at the Presidio and helped build the course there at the very end of the 19th century.

3) The old USGA Golf Journal magazine did a nice article about the course not too long before is ceased publishing in hard copy. (Maybe someone can find a link to the article on the USGA website?)

4) Re: Matt S.' comments regarding the impressive view down the 18th fairway (which I agree with), be aware that the nines were reversed when the course became public (circa 1999) and the new public clubhouse was built adjacent to the green on that hole. The whole time I played there as a PGC member, that was the 9th hole.

5) Also be aware that what are now the 10th & 18th holes were reversed around 1970. The greens are now where the tees were and the tees are now where the greens used to be.

Harding Park is one of those "it's all there in front of you" courses. Presidio is pretty much the opposite, with a fair number of blind shots and plenty of sidehill/uphill/downhill lies.

Anyone coming to SF is welcome to message me about getting together for a game.

P.S. Though it has not been mentioned so far, I think the Metropolitan GL (by the Oakland Airport) is a very good course. The routing rarely has you playing more than 2 holes in a row in the same direction. 

 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2023, 12:07:55 PM by David_Tepper »

Mark Kiely

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2023, 11:44:05 AM »
Thank you David, (all 3) Matts, Kevin, Tim, and others who have replied. I'll want to play as early in the day as possible. Will it likely be foggy first thing in the morning? (As in, does it detract from the experience if played in those conditions?)
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2023, 12:12:00 PM »
Mark K. -

The fog should not be an issue in mid-June. But given how weird the weather patterns have been in the Bay Area over the past 6-12 months, anything is possible.

Some might argue that playing the Presidio in the fog actually enhances the experience. ;)

 DT
 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2023, 12:18:54 PM by David_Tepper »

MCirba

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2023, 02:14:25 PM »
David Tepper,


That history is certainly compelling as is the course description!


Any idea who was involved in the reversing of 10 and 18 circa 1970?


Thanks!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

David_Tepper

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2023, 02:50:48 PM »
MCirba -

I have a copy of the Presidio GC 100-year book at home in San Francisco. That might have the answer to your question.

Another change to the course around 1970 or so was converting two par-4's into a par-3 (the current #7) and a par-5 (the current #9).

I think there is a paragraph or two about the design history of the course in the Cornish/Whitten book. I think Desmond Muirhead may have worked on the course around then. 

DT
« Last Edit: May 28, 2023, 03:15:09 PM by David_Tepper »

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2023, 03:01:23 PM »
Since David brought up Metro (which I think is a fantastic course), I thought I'd talk about the 10th hole there, which I think has fantastic architecture. A quick mock up shows the three lines players can take depending on the distance they have off the tee (standard Men's tee is used)


The key here is that the blue line, that plays to the green in two shots, over the widest part of the large water hazard, hits an extremely steep section of the green, which makes it extremely difficult to control, and can roll the ball back off into a terrible area. The more risk one is willing to take to get a wedge at the green, the more reward, and the safest way on is the longest.

I really think it's one of those unique holes, that plays to every level of strength, allow significant strategy and risk taking suited to each level of player. Add in the prevailing headwind, bringing distances into doubt, and players trying to reach the green in two might find themselves with a much more challenging approached than if they'd played to the right side. It's a pretty standout hole.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2023, 03:19:57 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2023, 06:18:40 PM »
2) The group that went on to become the San Francisco Golf Club first started playing golf at the Presidio and helped build the course there at the very end of the 19th century.


DT, I have a copy of the SFGC history, and I remember thinking that the location of the club's original course was a different spot than the current Presidio.  I will dig the history out in a few days (I am out of town) and see what it says.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

David_Tepper

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2023, 02:33:19 AM »
The current 1st hole is another one that has been changed. The tee and green have not been moved, but the hole used to be played out to the right and curving left thru what is now the driving range. What is now the 1st fairway used to be a semi-wetland area until it was drained and filled in.

I am not sure when the change was made and the current range was created, but it was after 1956. An old-timer once told me a temporary range was set up for the 1956 Western Open elsewhere within the Presidio.
 

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2023, 03:29:13 AM »
The current 1st hole is another one that has been changed. The tee and green have not been moved, but the hole used to be played out to the right and curving left thru what is now the driving range. What is now the 1st fairway used to be a semi-wetland area until it was drained and filled in.

I am not sure when the change was made and the current range was created, but it was after 1956. An old-timer once told me a temporary range was set up for the 1956 Western Open elsewhere within the Presidio.
Here is some aerial photography from 1947:


file source:
 
Filename: gs-cp_1-24.tif

Site: https://mil.library.ucsb.edu/ap_images/gs-cp/

Aerial photography finder tool: https://mil.library.ucsb.edu/ap_indexes/FrameFinder/
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2023, 04:01:13 AM »
We also have an aerial here from Sept 8, 1956, but I see no signs of the temporary range. The tournament would have been in July, so I feel like there should be evidence of it. In the larger photo, it looks like it's possible that the range could have been located over by Lobos Creek at the El Camino Del Mar parking lot, but I can't be sure, the photos aren't clear enough:



Here is the small section that could have been the range:




Location: https://mil.library.ucsb.edu/ap_images/gs-vlx/

Filename: gs-vlx_1-126.tif

Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

MCirba

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2023, 08:17:41 AM »
I LOVE golf course archeology threads...thanks, guys!


Looking forward to seeing what else can be uncovered
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

David_Tepper

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2023, 08:52:46 AM »
Matt S. -

Those two photos clearly show how the current #10 and #18 used to be before they were reversed. I think one of the reasons they were reversed is too many people were slicing their tee shots into the woods off the tee of what used to be the first hole (the hole furthest to the right in those photos).

If I remember correctly what I was told about the temporary range for the 1956 Western Open, it was east of the golf course down where the Julius Kahn playground, ball field and tennis courts are now located.

DT 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2023, 09:07:48 AM by David_Tepper »

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2023, 01:12:44 PM »
If I remember correctly what I was told about the temporary range for the 1956 Western Open, it was east of the golf course down where the Julius Kahn playground, ball field and tennis courts are now located.

Yes, you can clearly see multiple greens on the north side of the field. It looks like that section is now Morton Field, with an open area to the south where Paul Goode field is now (which was previously trees).

« Last Edit: May 29, 2023, 01:22:44 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2023, 02:05:09 PM »
I think one of the reasons they were reversed is too many people were slicing their tee shots into the woods off the tee

I think this is a really good reason for the change. The prevailing (near due east) winds can make that shot almost impossible to control given the angle of attack (45 left-to-right headwind). Add in any slice bias (which is incredibly common), and you are creating a pretty miserable experience for most golfers on the first hole.

That said, the current first hole is a good firm handshake, and I honestly wish it wasn't the first hole. It's one of two downhill par 4s, and it's easily my favorite par 4 on the course (likely due to the fact that it's a redesign). I honestly wish it came later in the round... but that's an entirely different aesthetic question.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2023, 02:18:31 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

Anthony Butler

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2023, 04:35:23 PM »
I was a member of the Presidio GC from 1983 to 1999. I must have played the course 500 or more times back then. I live a dozen or so blocks away and still go there once or twice a week to chip/putt or use the range. I have probably lived within a mile radius of the course for the past 40+ years.


David Tepper - When I lived in San Francisco in the 90s I  took lessons from the Head Pro at the Presidio.. If memory serves correctly his name was Jack Baker.

He was also coaching Dorothy Delasin at that time - who won the US Women's Amateur in 1999 before turning pro. It was certainly a humbling experience to realize no matter how well I played during our playing lessons I was getting comprehensively beaten by a smiling, polite 15-year old schoolgirl.

Jack did take me to Cypress Point Club one afternoon, which I guess made up for it... :)
Next!

David_Tepper

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2023, 06:19:56 AM »
Anthony B. -

Sounds like you were in San Francisco in the late 1990's.

Yes, I do remember Jack Baker and I certainly do remember Dorothy Delasin, possibly the best golfer to come out of San Francisco since Johnny Miller.

Jack Baker left SF in 2000 to go work at Princeville in Hawaii. He left the golf business there after 3-4 years and became a successful real estate broker on Kauai.

https://www.residekauai.com/jack/

DT
« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 07:33:00 AM by David_Tepper »

Jeff Segol

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Re: Renovation Work At the Presidio, San Francisco
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2023, 06:17:44 PM »
My regular group used to see Dorothy and her sister putting on the practice green at Sharp Park, supervised by their father, who would yell at them when they missed.

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