[Tom_Doak]

Why is it that Seminole is not Seminole without the wind? A great course should be a great course regardless, or am I missing something.

Cary:

A course has to be designed for its environment.  Seminole [like most links courses, and like Pacific Dunes] is in a windy spot, so it's designed with a bit of shoulder room for drives and approach shots, in anticipation of the wind.  If you catch it on a rare calm day, you are inclined to conclude that it's not as great as everyone makes it out to be.  You have to see it in a bit of wind to see its teeth.  That's not to say it's a boring course on a calm day -- it's not -- but it's not as challenging as some others, because it had to hold something in reserve for normal conditions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why is it that Seminole is not Seminole without the wind? A great course should be a great course regardless, or am I missing something.

Cary,

You are missing something, but then again, you've been an anti-Seminole golfer for years.

First, the course sits on the ocean, hence, WIND is an integral component of the design.

Take National, Shinnecock, Maidstone, Pacific/Bandon Dunes and all of the links courses in the UK, and take away the wind, and the play of the course is altered considerably.

But, the wind, is almost as prevalent as sunlight.

It is woven into the fabric of the course.

And, I'd venture to say that you've never played Seminole under competitive conditions.

Playing a casual round with friends is dramatically different from competing in a medal play event.

Seminole in casual rounds is an extremely enjoyable challenge, with the wind being the icing on the cake.

Seminole in medal play competitions can be ferocious.

What's the difference between the two plays ?

Well, the course remains static, but, it's the pressure to score and the pressure to avoid a big number that works on your mind.

In some cases the greens are bigger than they appear (#'s 2 & 11) , so a shot that you think is great, is 50 feet from the hole, leading to a  3 putt or worse.

And sometimes, a green plays much smaller than it looks (# 17), leading to a missed green and a more than challenging recovery.

Saturday, into the wind I birdied # 10 and felt like I picked up one to two shots on the field and then birdied # 18 and felt the same way.
Sometimes the most seemingly benign holes eat your lunch.

The 12th hole, a relatively short hole from an elevated tee is one of those holes.
The fairway looks extremely wide, but, there is a creek running parallel to the left flank, with OB.
The green looks like a lazy or dangling "L" bunkers are all around and the green slopes from front to back in general.

Irrespective of the direction and velocity of the wind, that darn green is hard to hit.

In fact, I think the hole played the 3rd hardest in the Coleman Tournament, which hosts a very strong field.

I'd be curious as to how many times you played Seminole and what the conditions were when you played, in terms of the turf, pace of the greens and wind.

If I could only play one course in the south in the winter, it would be Seminole by a wide margin, but. that's just me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I wanted to comment further on the play of this hole.

Down wind, the green is reachable by the longer golfers, but, as the direction of the wind changes, the entire complexion of the hole and the play of the hole changes.

Downwind, after a decent drive, the water hazards that pinch in about 130 or so yards from the green, don't present a problem on the second shot, provided you hit a good (distance & direction) second shot.  Mis-hits are always in jeopardy.

So, downwind, depending upon the hole location, you either want to go for the green, hit it into the front bunker or leave yourself short of the bunker with an L, S or regular wedge.

With crosswinds, the dynamic changes, the drive becomes a little dicier and the flanking bunkers come more into play, as does the flanking water about 130 yards from the green.

Into the wind, it really changes because the second shot requires a decision, try to hit it past the flanking/pinching water or lay back.

If you lay back, you probably have a shot in the 150 or more range, to an elevated green, flanked by bunkers, with bunkers front and back to a fairly sloped back to front green.

Now, this benign hole, isn't so benign.

That's the beauty of Seminole.

The character and play of each hole changes, and changes rathter dramatically, while the overall tactical balance remains intact.

# 10 is another perfect example.
With the prevailing wind out of the SE, you have to be cautious with your drive, often opting for a 3-wood/rescue/iron so as not to drive into the water left.  That leaves you downwind to a sloping green almost surrounded on three sides by water.
Not daunting, but dicey.

Now, into the wind or played with a wind from the East, this short hole becomes a beast.
The green, while sloping back to front, also slopes from East to West at the centerpoint to western point.
thus, shots drawing into the green, with an easterly wind, are in danger of going into the water, even after hitting the green 30 or 40 feet right of the water.

On Saturday, the two fellows on the other team, started their round with a 10, best ball on this hole.

Two years ago, my partner and I started with a 6 or 7.

I birdied it on Saturday and definitely picked up at least one and probably closer to two shots on the field.

And, if you play the hole away from the water on your second, now you're chipping/pitching back toward the water to a green that runs away from you.

This is a spectacular hole, with or without wind, and, it's mostly with wind.

Hope that helps

[Tom_Doak]

So, downwind, depending upon the hole location, you either want to go for the green, hit it into the front bunker or leave yourself short of the bunker with an L, S or regular wedge.

Patrick:

If the hole is playing downwind, do you really want to be in the front bunker (hitting a downwind bunker shot) or short of the bunker (hitting a downwind wedge shot) ?  Wouldn't you rather be in the left bunker or the back bunker so your third shot is back into the wind?  Or is the slope of the green so severe that you'd rather just play into it, even if you're playing downwind?

[JESII]

It's a pretty severe slope Tom...I'd think the front bunker is better than a lot of laces on the green.

[Rees Milikin]

Tom & Pat,

Thanks for giving a little more insight on the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

So, downwind, depending upon the hole location, you either want to go for the green, hit it into the front bunker or leave yourself short of the bunker with an L, S or regular wedge.

Patrick:

If the hole is playing downwind, do you really want to be in the front bunker (hitting a downwind bunker shot) or short of the bunker (hitting a downwind wedge shot) ?  

Tom,

It depends upon the hole location.

With a front hole location, I want to be in the bunker rather than short of the bunker.

With a middle or back hole location I want to be short of the bunker so that I can use a Lob-Wedge.

Wouldn't you rather be in the left bunker or the back bunker so your third shot is back into the wind?  

If the hole was cut all the way back, I wouldn't mind being in the back bunker down wind, but, that assumes that I can hit the green in two.
If the hole was cut in the front of the green, I definitely wouldn't want to be in the back bunker, even playing into the wind since that green gets steeper in front, and it's very fast.

As I mentioned earlier, a friend of mine had an eagle putt of about 20 feet to a front hole location, hit what he thought was a good putt, ended up in the front bunker, left it in the bunker and made a smooth 7.

I'd rather not be in the flanking bunkers due to the pitch of the green.
Not that I have much choice once I decide to go for the green, but, if I had my druthers, the hole location dictates my play.
Fortunately, the hole location can be pinpointed when you're on the 11th green and 12th tee.

Or is the slope of the green so severe that you'd rather just play into it, even if you're playing downwind?

The slope of the green gets more severe as you get closer to the front of the green.

Recently I had a 15 foot birdie putt from 11 o'clock to a front hole location and I putted about as defensive as I could get.
The reason I was so defensive is that the fellow I was playing with is the one who made the 7 after hitting the green in two and he had a 20 footer that rolled past the hole and came within 6 inches of going off the green.

Even if you leave yourself a two footer, it's still a dicey two footer and should you somehow manage to leave your approach putt above the hole, at medal and even at match play, it's a knee knocker.

I think the size of some of the greens conceal or diminish the perception on the amount of break on short putts.
It would seem that the general plane of the large green conceals the break because the golfer remains in the macro realm and doesn't recognize the micro realm.

Hole location at Seminole has such an enormous influence on play.

On # 2 with a mid to mid-front hole, I thought I hit a great shot, about 10-15 feet from the hole, but, as I walked up to the green, the ball was still rolling and came to rest about 5 yards off the green.

If you don't get the ball to the sector where the hole is cut, bad things can happen, and often, those bad things are related to wind direction and velocity.

Had I hit that approach another 10 feet or so, I would have had a relatively short birdie putt.

I know that you tend to want to keep the ball below the hole, but, there are certain hole locations where being on the plane where the hole is cut, even a little behind it, produces better results.

It's a fascinating course and I think they have the "maintenance meld" just about right.

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