[Martin Toal]

Like with most things, there is a happy medium. On the one hand, informality and relaxedness are great, and that is what you find at (almost all) the clubs in Ireland I used to frequent. It can be a bit different in parts of England. When I came to see a club in Buckinghamshire after moving into the area, the Secretary gave me a tour. On the door of the main bar was a sign saying 'Gentlemen should wear a jacket and tie, or cravat, after 7.30pm'. I told the Sec that my cravat tailor was on long term sick, and he replied that I was about 30 years too young for one anyway.

But on the other hand, I think a degree of decorum is appropriate and I do find seeing players on a golf course in denim jeans or football tops slightly unsettling, and I would prefer that they did not wear them.

[Tony_Muldoon]

There seems to be a bit of a perception among some here that traditionally all clubs have had some sort of black tie dress code. This is simply not true and there has always been a diversity in what was expected. It is working clothes that were usually frowned up on but that was the same at most clubs and associations not just golf courses. If we are really so into tradition then ditch the range finders, buggies, electric trollies, etc.

Mark C, you will still be allowed on most courses up here even without jeans

Jon

Jon I can’t be 100% sure about this but my take is…

I do think this has in part been a result of society changing and the golf clubs having to change as a result.

We’ve discussed the effect of drink drive laws on here before, but usually only the effect it had on bar profits.  In my father’s heyday, the 1960’s and early 1970’s, at his fairly typical suburban club, not only was the bar a much livelier place every night of the week, but there were regular black tie “do’s” at New Year, Valentine’s night, Captains Dinner etc.  The decline of one led to the decline of the other as the club’s became less sociable and Restaurants and other opportunities abounded. I can recall he would pop to the club some evenings on the off chance of seeing who was in the bar.  This was exactly as his father had done and it’s no coincidence both were skilled Bridge Players.  Hence ‘club culture’ was undermined off the course before it led to new members wanting to play different games on it. As the drink drive culture changed, new pay and play clubs arrived and the old golfing ways were no longer taught.  Unlike my father I didn’t grow up hanging around the Club, but at least I was aware there were traditions.  I think the outside world see’s those traditions in a negative way and that’s the challenge. 

Those Clubs who try to have it all ways are in my experiencing suffering. When they get new members it often seems to be a fourball of mates, who play together and  stay for a few seasons until some other club down the road advertises a better offer.  For many ‘traditional’ clubs it’s now a case of adapt or die.

[Philip Gawith]

Even Phillip added "

I like the bit about "even Philip" Tony! I am sure there is a compliment lurking in there somewhere!!

As a matter of fact, most of my "home" golf is played at traditional clubs, which I am very fond of. When I travel, many of the clubs/courses I play are very modern and different. The pleasure is absolutely no less  - just different. The love of the game certainly transcends any difference between these clubs and how they approach the game.

In passing, it is not hard to understand why people not familiar with traditional golf, as played in the UK, might find some of its habits hard to understand. Much of it is rooted in history, with competitive amateur golf (of which these clubs are the stewards) being played in cold winter weather - so dressing up/eating formal meals etc makes more sense. What is beyond dispute is that tradition has served these clubs well - they have stood the test of time in ways many courses can only dream of.

What Duncan is objecting to mostly is gratuitous snobbery and pomposity which is not the same as tradition, albeit they certainly can and do overlap. I agree with David Elvins - the best clubs are those formed among like-minded peoples. They must stick to the standards that work for them, as much as society will allow.

[Tom Kelly]

I don't seem to have much support here, but I stand by my opinions. I am convinced that time will bear them out.

While maybe 10 - 20% of clubs - those with a 'name' course or with a particularly upmarket and traditionally-minded membership - may well continue to thrive operating on Victorian or Edwardian codes, the vast majority of clubs are already struggling to survive. It is these clubs to whom my comments are directed.

I completely agree.

Tradition is fantastic, but everything evolves and many clubs and golf in general are getting smothered by some of the more superfluous traditions and are running the risk of being left behind. Clubs like Deal are great, along with the fantastic courses, the off course traditions are part of the attraction to many, but that's what they are, off-course traditions aren't they? They may add to and even be part of golf for some people, but they aren't an essential part to the sport and for many they are off putting. The on-course traditions of sportsmanship, etiquette, dress etc are the traditions that need to be preserved at all costs in my personal opinion and the general off course politeness and etiquette within any club will surely follow suit. Too many clubs are trying to maintain the superfluous off courses traditions when there just isn't any demand for them and in doing so are putting their club at risk, putting off people getting into the game, joining the club or even at times visiting golfers. There is clearly a happy medium and for each club it is probably different, but I'm with Duncan, I believe most clubs in the UK need to start looking at ways of being more open and approachable and at times tradition is one of the things preventing this.

As a side point I think some of the traditions may actually be holding golf architecture back for the masses in a roundabout way. I know a large portion of golfers that would avoid visiting certain clubs or even not realise they are able to visit these clubs because they see them more as a stuffy old boys club than a golf club and feel anything but comfortable at them, kind of like going into an expensive clothes shop with three shirts on a single rack a the back of a vast shop, with nothing else there, 4 shop staff and no price tags. This means when they treat themselves to a round at a 'top' club they instead head to the Wentworths, Celtic Manors and Belfrys and believe because of the cost and special day out they have had (along with the TV coverage) that these are what good golf should be. They go back to their little members club and start telling everyone and the greenkeeper that lots of rough, tight fairways and bunkers everywhere are what is needed.

I may well be wrong about it all, but as I see it tradition is great but golf in general and many many clubs would really benefit from learning to evolve.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think the answer to the initial question is Yes.

Its going to be an individuals choice what type of course he/she wants to join, though most people in the UK join the nearest club to them, or choose from one within 20 minutes.

Most clubs have moved their rules and very few have not moved any.

I dont think people leave a golf club because of 'stuffy rules', they knew those before. I am 100% certain that some golf clubs are not friendly to the under 40s and make themselves unattractive, so lose out. Our club has an average of 47, Some clubs are well over 60 and that is worrying for them and they should change their policies if they want to survive. I dont think there are enough under 40s in the UK that want to wear long socks in the summer, play foursomes, have mobile phone restrictions.

The UK model is very different than the USA, our clubs dont demand you eat there and a club that is $1500 per year is considered very expensive.

Having a lot of younger members creates other problems though but thats another story.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tony,

I do not see why a club can not have relaxed dress rules for play and still have Black Tie evening dos. Although I do not have a problem with jeans I do find football shirts and vests a bit jarring on the course but then again I do not like the jogging shoe style golf shoes either. Up here in the Highlands most clubs just expect clothing to be clean and in good repair.

You are correct about the drink driving thing but then I know some clubs who just have a deal with a local taxi firm for reduced rates or run a voluntary service.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Tom

You say the old guard suffers due to off course rules, but a good percentage of these top nob clubs have a full visitor book charging expensive green fees and full membership. 

In my experience, since coming to live in England in 1998, things at most clubs have changed quite a bit.  No question, most clubs have relaxed rules and at many clubs, members don't enforce the rules in place. 

Coming from a guy who is really against rules for leisure time activities/clubs, I am really struggling to understand what needs to change in that regard to attract a younger crowd.  Do you really think allowing jeans and phones in the house is going to save clubs from extinction? I am very skeptical of this as a top line solution. 

I am not convinced there really is a problem with low membership.  I think the problem was an overbuild of courses.  Where the old line clubs have struggled (the ones that have struggled) is in competing with new build courses with fresh blood membership. Perceptions matter, and most people who don't know any better consider many of the old line clubs are stuffy.  I am not in the least stuffy and I have not found even the top notch old line clubs to be stuffy unless you want to consider no phones or jeans on the property as stuffy.  I could honestly care less about dress.  If a guy wants to wear joggers and t-shirt, fine by me, but I don't want phones on courses because their use inevitably slows the game down and makes it less sociable.  I am not buying discrete use.  Think of how phones are used in daily lives, the standard of discrete is less and less discrete.  Imagine if everybody was using phones discretely on the golf course - check that, I don't want to imagine it.  All that said, if folks really think all clubs will survive just by relaxing rules they are living in a dream world. 

Ciao   

[Tony_Muldoon]

Certainly a compliment Philip. Do you know of any others who share  their two home clubs with Ian Fleming?

I can’t blame you for not going public with the elements you find harder to stomach. Part of the fun of being a member of a club with strong traditions is figuring out exactly what they are and which parts you don’t wish to partake in.


As an aside. 
I have enjoyed listening to the Rolling Stones’s, Exile on Main St for at least 35 years. Commonly thought of as being recorded during their most decadent period, in a drug fuelled haze in the Cote D’Azur.  They were the living embodiment of everything the establishment professed to hate.  It was with some surprise recently that I understood the reference to the “Loving Cup”.  In the song of that title, a female is encouraged to “gimmie little drink, from your loving cup.”

Definition “1. a large vessel, usually two-handled, out of which people drink in turn at a banquet”


Given Mick’s penchant for hobnobbing with the aristocracy I feel this is where he became familiar with the term.  Until I had been to a grand City dinner, I hadn’t spotted the reference.  The boy from Dartford had joined the Club.

Traditions enhance our society in more ways than we normally care to consider and it will be a sad and less colourful day when egalitarianism see’s them all pass.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - Not allowing phones mean some people cant play. It is a big issue for some people, I certainly could not go on to a golf course without one, but for some people they can live without them. The balance is with the Under 40s having a phone as essential over 40s less so, so in the time the balance will move more in 'the phones' favour.

I had a conversation with someone and he said he could not understand why younger members dont join, they did not allow phones (they do now) I asked him "do you allow mobile phones" he said "No". I went on too point out that for some people having the phone is the very reason they could play golf.

I strongly suspect that clubs that say No Phones, still have lots of players out there with them. You need to be discreet and on silent mode or very low volume of course.

Phones are allowed pretty much anywhere. Why not golf clubs?

You are right when you say 'rules' are not the reason why clubs are going under and Over supply of golf courses is where it all stems from, clubs are fighting for business now and in making their product cheaper and cheaper the situation that its cheaper to play golf not being a member has been created. That is against the way it should be. The cheapest way to play golf should be via being a member.

[Tom Kelly]

Tom

You say the old guard suffers due to off course rules, but a a good percentage of these top nob clubs have a full visitor book charging expensive green fees and full membership.  

Coming from a guy who is really against rules for leisure time activities/clubs, I am really struggling to understand what needs to change in that regard to attract a younger crowd.  Do you really think allowing jeans and phones in the house is going to save clubs from extinction? I am very skeptical of this as a top line solution.  

Ciao  

Sean,

I'm not saying all the old guard suffer but some of the old yet not 'top nob' courses with low or even none existent visitor numbers do.  The old guard I assume you are referring to with full visitor numbers, the real top courses probably prefer it that their image turns some people away but I believe this is where the golfing masses education in good golf architecture is damaged. Instead of playing Sunningdale, they feel more comfortable paying twice as much to go down the round to Wentworth and leave thinking it is what golf should be at their home club  and it is a better course than either at Sunningdale, which they have never seen.

I don't think jeans should be allowed and don't think that would make any difference, chinos are in fashion anyway! Strict jacket and tie rules are slightly off putting to some though. But I agree with Adrian on the phones, where else are they banned? I don't like them used on the course too much, should be on silent and answering anything other than emergency call on the course is pretty rude to your playing partners, but I don't see why using them in the clubhouse is wrong as long as they used with respect to others around you. Playing games, music etc is again rude and should be stopped but the occasional text, checking the football scores or excusing yourself to answer a call away from others in the clubhouse seems perfectly fine to me.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom K,

It cannot be because historically they have been frowned upon that you think jeans should not be allowed because then you would have to be against using mobile phones.

So just out of interest, why do you think jeans should not be worn?

Jon

[Tom Kelly]

Jon,

I suppose it is partly history and tradition that make me think jeans shouldn't be allowed. Some of golfs traditions are fantastic and a basic dress code is one that I believe should be kept, if we lose them all it starts becoming a free for all and golf loses it's sense of identity. I severely doubt the ability to wear jeans on the course stops/puts people off from playing as most of society accepts it. It is like being told your office work dress code is smart/casual, no jeans. It is a common line to draw. Jeans have been around for years and always been banned where as mobile phones are only a recent invention. Banning mobile phones gives off a completely different impression as it is not common in society for them to be banned, so people start to question it think it is extraordinary, bizarre and stuffy. On the course it is understandable though really should just be part of course etiquette but in the clubhouse I don't see why they should be banned.

[Tom Kelly]

On the course it is understandable though really should just be part of course etiquette but in the clubhouse I don't see why they should be banned.

but it's nice to at least have one place where all those things are largely switched off.

Very true and maybe I am just naive, but I would hope this would happen anyway the occasional glance but not much more.

[Sean_A]

On the course it is understandable though really should just be part of course etiquette but in the clubhouse I don't see why they should be banned.

but it's nice to at least have one place where all those things are largely switched off.

Very true and maybe I am just naive, but I would hope this would happen anyway the occasional glance but not much more.

Tom

For those of us who don't have a phone attached to our hands, you would be amazed at how often folks "check" their phone.  Its become extremely habitual for many even if they know there is no real business to deal with.  I think its far worse than the old watch watchers.  I know many very busy people who somehow find time to put their phones away for half the day while playing golf.  As I always say, if you have a train to catch, don't play golf.  

I would bet a load of money that if phones were allowed in houses and on courses we would have the "normal" phone culture exhibited by the current 0 (it seems anyway) to 20 or 30 something year olds within 10 years.  I dread the day when it happens.  I think it would be much easier if people admitted to themselves that they aren't that important where 99.99999% of calls or texts can't keep for a private moment.  Lets face it, the phone has become more of a habit than a necessity and if it is a necessity, chances are, you shouldn't be on the course.

Ciao      

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Interesting topic for sure, but I am one of those who do not think that the traditions of "golf club' membership is creating any kind of damage to te numbers of people applying for membership.
MOST like the traditions when they are members a sense of belonging to something, that is one of the reasons we join golf clubs.

Traditions and sensible dress codes are part of the game.
I went to Sunningdale recently, certainly one of England finer clubs, and did not have to change clothes for lunch, the service was very very friendly not stuffy at all and this is Sunningdale!!!
I love going home to play and seeing the Traditions observed, and still cringe when I see poeple here playing golf in jeans....just call me old fashioned.

[Josh Stevens]

It is what separates us from the public, and long may that continue

I am a member of the poshest club in town, the average age is decreasing hugely and there are many young members and if anything, it is the younger guys who embrace the traditions the strongest.

Coat and tie after 4.30 is required, and the younger guys love it.  It is a sign of distinction and separation from the masses and that is always important

[Sean_A]

Brian

I can definitely understand the expectation of a fairly immediate response, even if I don't think it is reasonable unless its obviously a deal worth money or your boss  .  However, we all can't have instant gratification all the time.  If a guy is playing golf he has made a choice not to work, thats exactly how I would see it for an employee of mine.  I get the definite impression that a great many people use the phone as an excuse for working even if they aren't really working or perhaps more importantly, should be working.  

Ciao  

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - Lets just say that you had a business where you might get an enquiry for 16 golfers that want a 3 day golf tour and accomodation, lets say you have placed  various adverts in publications, do you want to take that phone call or be aware of that phone call within a few minutes? There is only 1 answer, of course you do, an enquiry for business should be dealt with asap, 5, 6, 7 hours later might be too late, that customer will be looking at other deals and might go with someone else.

Now the dilema is.... No phone with you while you play golf or take the phone? Do you want to stay at home and wait for the call?

You can relate that to plumbers, electricians all sorts that play golf perhaps if they are a bit quiet but they dont want to lose that call.

If your a boss your staff might need you to help them make an important call. The mobile phone is ACTUALLY GREAT FOR GOLF as it allows people time to play.

Banning phones is absolute financial suicide. Hardly any one will leave a club or not play a course because a club allows a phone, can you imagine getting invited to play somewhere and then you ask the chap thats invited you...just one thing do they let you use a phone on the course because if they do, I dont want to play.

Phones are a big yes, but they must be discreet and on silent or low and definetly no silly ring tones. It seems even more important as time goes on as the phones have golf apps and probably in a few years will replace the scorecard, you will just type your score into the phone text it to a server and you will have a live leaderboard for the midweek medal!

[Thomas Dai]

'Phones are not just used for calls and texts on golf courses. Photo tours for GCA? And, seemingly per the revised Rules, for storm forecasting. Also, there are the SatNav related Apps you can download etc so your 'phone also becomes your yardage calculator/course planner/rangefinder - and when you're using it John Doe on the other side of the fairway isn't likely to know whether you're replying to a just received text, checking for storms, or checking the yardages to the centre of the green.

All the best.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

Hang on.  How are you going to be discrete when you receive a call pertaining to golf tour business or some such like?  That could be a 5-10 minute conversation.  If you don't spend the time then and there, where are you with the potential business?  I can't see how you can conduct proper business on the course when you don't have a clue as to how involved the call may be.  That is, if by discrete, you don't mean a quick "hello, yes, yes, no, thank you good bye".  Discrete is as much about time as how you take the call.

Its clear we have a difference of opinion on the matter. I think your idea would most definitely slide down the slippery slope to common phone usage we see today by the 0-30 somethings.  I see it now and again on the course today.  Just about exactly what you are speaking of.  One guy who is manning the business phone while playing golf.  Others are essentially expected to delay the game, as if they weren't there, so a chit chat can occur.  This would become a very common occurrence.  

If the survival of clubs depends on phone conversations while playing, god help us all...please.  

Ciao  

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

I suppose it is partly history and tradition that make me think jeans shouldn't be allowed. Some of golfs traditions are fantastic and a basic dress code is one that I believe should be kept, if we lose them all it starts becoming a free for all and golf loses it's sense of identity. I severely doubt the ability to wear jeans on the course stops/puts people off from playing as most of society accepts it. It is like being told your office work dress code is smart/casual, no jeans. It is a common line to draw. Jeans have been around for years and always been banned where as mobile phones are only a recent invention. Banning mobile phones gives off a completely different impression as it is not common in society for them to be banned, so people start to question it think it is extraordinary, bizarre and stuffy. On the course it is understandable though really should just be part of course etiquette but in the clubhouse I don't see why they should be banned.

Tom,

I grew up at a club where jeans were not allowed on the course or in the clubhouse so am familiar with the idea behind it. Jeans have only really been here in the UK for the last 60 years or so and were not allowed at many clubs because they were considered work clothing. I quite often play my own course in jeans but never wear them when playing elsewhere as it just feels odd. Having said that it does not bother me if others wear jeans but I dislike people on their mobiles unless they really need to be reachable and lets face it very few people do.

Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

It is what separates us from the public, and long may that continue


 It is a sign of distinction and separation from the masses and that is always important

What breathtaking arrogance!

What makes you think that you and your ilk are in any way superior to the general public? It is exactly that kind of elitist attitude that makes most golfers refrain from joining golf clubs.

You can rest assured though. The public who you so dispise wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.

[Niall C]

Duncan

I've been a member of 5 different clubs in the UK, two just over the border in England and three in Scotland. All bar one were local clubs and the other was a men only top 100 club. In none of them was the Captain addressed as Mr Captain or any such thing on a habitual basis. The only time I heard that was when one of his pals was having a laugh or pulling his leg about something. With regards to office bearers having prime parking spots, well good luck to them. I think the ordinary member has an inkling how these largely unpaid "officials" work hard for the club in their own time and appreciate their efforts even if they don't agree with every decision.

Frankly, can't help thinking that you're largely imagining all this class warfare pish.

Niall  

[Josh Stevens]

The point is, that it is the outside observer who tut tutts and comments about how old fashioned and elitist it all is, who doesn't get it.
To those inside, it is not an issue for the simple reason that is not an issue.  Having to wear a jacket and tie into the bar is not an issue because I have done it for 40 years so that it is automatic - I do not think about, analyse it or try to compare it to what I might wear at a public track - it is just the way it is done, it is reflex and I would not have it any other way.  If you don't get it, or if you have to ask, then you probably don't belong

Is it elitist? - shit yes, of course it is.  

It is all part of what it means to be an old private club golfer - dress correctly, walk rather than ride, know how to fix a divot and plug mark, rake a bunker, and get around in less than 4 hours, and then drink lots and lots of good red wine afterward

If you don't like it then bugger off  - no one has a gun to your head.

[Josh Stevens]

And... no one ever said we think we are superior than anyone else.

If you think membership of such and such a golf club  confers some sort of elevated social status then you miss the point - it is entirely internalised.  What the outside world thinks is utterly irrelevant to us.

I am an average bloke, with mortgage, wife and kids who drives a Hyundai, but I love the tradition associated with my old club.  Please don't try to make me feel guilty about my last vice.

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