[Niall C]

What are your top 3 Scottish moderns and why ?

You choose the criteria, it can be your favourites, or it can be best courses, greatest courses or indeed the worst courses. Or how about architecturally interesting ? I suggest moderns covers anything from 1990 onwards although I’m not too fussed about courses that were built a bit before that date.

Candidates include;

The Dukes (original)
The Dukes (remodelled)
Kingsbarns
The Castle Course
Spey Valley
Castle Stuart
Skibo Castle
The Torrance, St Andrews Bay (original)
The Torrance, St Andrews Bay (remodelled)
The Devlin, St Andrews Bay
Kittocks, St Andrews Bay (remodelled Devlin)
The Roxburgh
Craigielaw, Aberlady
Craighead, Crail
The Renaissance
Balmedie International
Rowallan, Kilmaurs
Cadrona
Whitekirk
Machrihanish Dunes

I dare say I’ve missed a few but you get the idea. Look forward to responses.

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Hi Niall,

does Askernish belong in this group? Also Dundonald and possibly Loch Lomond.

Cheers,

Jon

[Mark Pearce]

Loch Lomond was under construction when I got married in 1992, so belongs on the list.

[Jim McCann]

Niall

Don't forget the following courses either:

Brunston Castle
Carrick
Earl of Mar
Forbes of Kingennie
Torrance Park

There are probably others too that I can't think of right now...

[Niall C]

Gents

Thanks for that. Now what's your top 3 ?

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Okay Niall,

The Dukes (original) Played it once found it bland.
The Dukes (remodelled) Not played but looks good
Kingsbarns My Number 2. I saw the site here before construction and was blown away when I first played it. Good test of golf.
The Castle Course Only seen it not played
Spey Valley Like this course and think it will be better once it has bedded in
Castle Stuart My Number 1. Really impressed with everything to do with this course great concept and fun to play
Skibo Castle Only seen this but looks really good.
The Torrance, St Andrews Bay (original) Okay but better golf close by
The Torrance, St Andrews Bay (remodelled)
The Devlin, St Andrews Bay As above
Kittocks, St Andrews Bay (remodelled Devlin)
The Roxburgh Played here in the winter 10 years back and though it looked like it might be a good summer course it was a slog in the winter
Craigielaw, Aberlady Played twice which is enough. Opportunity missed with far better golf all around
Craighead, Crail Not played
The Renaissance Seen it but not played it. Looked good
Balmedie International Seen it several times but not played. Good looking course which will hopefully become even better
Rowallan, Kilmaurs Not seen
Cadrona Long slog with some good holes but very wet. I believe the drainage has been improved since I played though
Whitekirk Nice setting and fun if somewhat difficult course
Machrihanish Dunes Not played
Brunston Castle Not seen
Carrick not seen
Earl of Mar not seen
Forbes of Kingennie not seen
Torrance Park not seen
Askernish My number 3. Fun course which should be a model for more similar projects
Dundonald Really enjoyed playing here tough decision between it and Askernish
Loch Lomond. Great course if you can play it. It was in incredible condition and looked great but unplayable for me in a 20ish mph wind
G-West seen this and it looks good but have not played it
Gleneagles 2014 course. What a missed opportunity

Jon

[Jonathan Davison]

1. Kingsbarn - just a wonderful course
2. Castle Stuart - just as good as Kingsbarn, maybe another day I would have it as number 1
3. Loch Lomond - Pretty site, pretty course & some great strategy

[John Chilver-Stainer]

My favourite 3 moderns

1. Castle Stuart,
2. Machrihanish Dunes
3. Kingsbarns

all great modern links courses, of which 2 are faux links, however none compare with the eccentricities and accidental ground shapes found on ancient links.

I've still to play the more celebrated golf courses such as Renaissance, Trump, Castle, Skibo and Loch Lomond.

Of the David Williams courses I preferred Spey Valley to Cadrona and Roxburgh, however I found his distinct styling gets repetitive.

Archerfield Dirleton and Fidra deserve a mention, at least they are links.

[Adam Lawrence]

Of the David Williams courses I preferred Spey Valley to Cadrona and Roxburgh

That's Dave Thomas, of course.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Thanks Adam - I've been watching too much rugby lately - got my welshman mixed up!!!

[Graylyn Loomis]

My top 3 Scottish moderns are as follows:

1. Kingsbarns
2. Castle Stuart
3. Loch Lomond

Renaissance Club would be a very close fourth. I would rank the St Andrews Castle Course (despite its greens) higher than Mach Dunes... The crazy routing of Mach Dunes detracted from the experience.

[Gary Slatter]

My top 3 moderns would be:
1.  Kingsbarns:  very much like the design, played it many times, it's greens never seem to be good enough
2.  Kittocks:  I liked the original but when one of the best par fours in Fife was added the new course became superb, still very underrated but enjoyed by local golfers.  Wonderful seaside stretch, the last 14 holes are now an excellent fun test! Best value in area.
3.  Dukes: doesn't get the love it could if it was anywhere else.  Excellent Peter Thompson design, better before the changes, really good when fast and firm.

4.  Castle Stuart Too much old wood  5. Renaissance; only played it 3 times in pouring rain, underwhellming   6. Spey Valley :  good hidden gem, fun to play when dry  7.  The Carrick: good mix of holes but nothing Scottish   8.  Loch Lomond: too much nitrogen for Scotland

[Thomas Dai]

Not commenting on how good it may be in comparison to the others mentioned but shouldn't Meldrum House be on the Scottish moderns list?
All the best

[Ally Mcintosh]

No.1 Kingsbarns.

[Tom Kelly]

Castle Stuart is my number one closely followed by Kingsbarns.

Having walked around the new holes at Renaissance I think it would probably come very close, but having not played it yet I can't really comment.

[Tom_Doak]

I have a lot of respect for the work at both Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart.  The earthmoving and shaping work at each is some of the very best I have seen anywhere in the world, so I am not surprised why they would be seen as the top two modern courses.

That said, I do find it somewhat disturbing that two courses that featured such extensive earth-moving (almost wall to wall) are the standard-bearers for modern design in Scotland, of all places.  There is hardly a single natural feature on either course, other than the rocks along the seashore.  I am proud of the fact that we did NOT try to re-make The Renaissance Club into something it wasn't.

[Niall Hay]

Castle Stuart
Loch Lomond
Kingsbarns

Mach Dunes is good too. But still maturing when we played.

[Tom Kelly]

I have a lot of respect for the work at both Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart.  The earthmoving and shaping work at each is some of the very best I have seen anywhere in the world, so I am not surprised why they would be seen as the top two modern courses.

That said, I do find it somewhat disturbing that two courses that featured such extensive earth-moving (almost wall to wall) are the standard-bearers for modern design in Scotland, of all places.  There is hardly a single natural feature on either course, other than the rocks along the seashore.  I am proud of the fact that we did NOT try to re-make The Renaissance Club into something it wasn't.

Which Scottish modern courses have been built on land good enough to warrant little earth moving?

Mach Dunes
Trump
Renaissance
Crail - Craighead?

I've not played any, I've walked Trump before construction and seen most of Renaissance since the new holes were built and guess both would challenge Castle Stuart for my best Scottish modern course but there isn't much other competition that I can think of.

[jeffwarne]

I have a lot of respect for the work at both Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart.  The earthmoving and shaping work at each is some of the very best I have seen anywhere in the world, so I am not surprised why they would be seen as the top two modern courses.

That said, I do find it somewhat disturbing that two courses that featured such extensive earth-moving (almost wall to wall) are the standard-bearers for modern design in Scotland, of all places.  There is hardly a single natural feature on either course, other than the rocks along the seashore.  I am proud of the fact that we did NOT try to re-make The Renaissance Club into something it wasn't.

Tom,
At what point do you attempt to make a piece of land something it wasn't?
i.e. if you had taken the jobs at  Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart, and been given full control, would you have left the land as "something it was"?

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

if you want to see a new Scottish course that has very little earth movement then Askernish is worth a look I have it as my number three after Castle Stuart and Kingsbarnes. Mine was also done with very little earth movement as I only had a 3 ton excavator and a wheelbarrow

Jon

[Mark Pearce]

Crail Craighead was built on flat farmland.

[Tom_Doak]

Which Scottish modern courses have been built on land good enough to warrant little earth moving?

Tom:  That's the thing:  many architects and/or developers would have decided that The Renaissance Club warranted a lot of earthmoving, too.  Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns are great courses, but the approach to both projects is based on £100+ green fees.  Is that really all you know how to do over there anymore?

[Tom_Doak]

I have a lot of respect for the work at both Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart.  The earthmoving and shaping work at each is some of the very best I have seen anywhere in the world, so I am not surprised why they would be seen as the top two modern courses.

That said, I do find it somewhat disturbing that two courses that featured such extensive earth-moving (almost wall to wall) are the standard-bearers for modern design in Scotland, of all places.  There is hardly a single natural feature on either course, other than the rocks along the seashore.  I am proud of the fact that we did NOT try to re-make The Renaissance Club into something it wasn't.

Tom,
At what point do you attempt to make a piece of land something it wasn't?
i.e. if you had taken the jobs at  Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart, and been given full control, would you have left the land as "something it was"?

Jeff:

I don't know the answer to your question, because it's unlikely I would get hired for a project of that sort.  I saw the site at Kingsbarns before it was a golf course and, not imagining that they were going to commit millions to move earth around in Scotland, I thought it wouldn't be a very exciting prospect, so I didn't pursue it.

I'm certainly not saying they did the wrong thing with the ground they had.  I'm amazed with what they came up with.  But there's a limited market for projects like that.  And it's possible that the scale of construction is making it harder to get permits for a course like Trump's, which really did not require a lot of earthmoving [even though they chose to do a bunch, anyway].

[Scott Weersing]

To Tom:

Which site did you move more earth, Renaissance or Streamstrong?

And while you did not pursue the bid for Kingsbarns, you have moved a lot dirt with the Rawls course. But is that an exception?

[Niall C]

John C-S

While I generally agree with your comment re modern links lacking "eccentricities and accidental ground shapes" does that include Mach Dunes also ? I've yet to play there but imagined they used a fairly light touch on the existing contours, no ?

Gary

Can I suggest you might be biased with regards the Kittocks   Haven't seen the new course but played the Devlin and Torrance a number of times and enjoyed both although some of the off-course bits between holes was pretty poor. As a hacker, and traditionalist (ie. play it as it lies) I tend to see those parts that perhaps you as a professional and straight hitter might not.

Dukes - I played the Thomson layout 20 odd times and enjoyed it however there was several issues with it, mainly to do with the uphill par 5 (15th) which was a slog, that and the general long slog between holes. I've only walked the "new layout" and to me it looks like what they have done is mainly cosmetic (eg hairy lipped bunkers instead of pot bunkers) which I didn't find in any way offensive, but they have managed to reroute part of the course on land which presumably wasn't previously available which has managed to deal with the uphill par 5 issue. Do you not think the course benefits from that ?

Niall  

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