[Dieter Jones]

For my club the ladies tees measure at 5468 metres (5980 YARDS).  On a par of 73 for ladies my club has a slope of 147 and scratch rating of 80 (the highest for women in Australia).

On the issue of choosing to tee forward / selecting your own tees, a big issue for us would be the fact that so much of play is medal play - preventing this option. I do not know what it is like in other countries but I know Australian "club golf" is dominated by medal play.

[Garland Bayley]

Andrew,

What do hole handicap ratings have to do with what holes players love to play?
I guess, every course has 6 holes that players hate, because their ratings are 1 through 6. Every course has 6 holes that players are ambivalent about, because their ratings are 7 through 12. And, every course has 6 holes that players love, because their handicap ratings are 13 through 18.
 
Or, did I get that backwards?
 

[Thomas Dai]

On his splendid photo tour of Trump Aberdeen, Tiggles - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57072.0.html - Bryan Izatt mentions that the course yardages, ratings and slopes for the furthest back Black tees and the White tees he played are 7428/77.4/149 and 6329/72.3/133 for a par of 72.

I'm curious about this.

What is the base point used for calculation purposes? Black, white or some other colour? Presumably there is one? For example, if as in the case of Tiggles, the rating is 77.4 from the blacks and 72.3 from the whites do you add 5.1 to your base handicap when playing the blacks or deduct 5.1 when playing from the whites?

Also, anyone happen to know what the UK calculated SSS is from the various tees at Tiggles?
 
All the best

[Rich Goodale]

Thomas

As far as I can see (which right now is the 2-feet or so between me and the Tiggles Scorecard and Yardage Book), there is has been no CONGU SSS ratibg for the course.  Given that as far as I know there have not been any Qualifying Competitions as defined by CONGU (and not any planned to be held in the near future) at Tiggles no SSS is required.  What they have done is "rated" the course per the USGA/GHIN formulae, which is logical as a high % of their players will be American and will be required to post their scores for Handicap purposes if they play the course, whether in a competition or not.  That being said, the USGA "course rating" for various tees is essentially the same thing as the SSS.  So, from the Blacks the SSS is 77 and from the Whites 72.  However, in determining "strokes" taken or given you also have to factor in the "Slope" reading which is too boring to tlak about now.  Suffice it to say, if you play a match for money against a USGA handicapped player, try to make him play off his "index" rather than his home handicap.  A USGA player with an index of 8 will play to 8 at his home club (if it is an average one) but to 9 off thewhite  tees at Tiggles and 10+ off the blacks.

[Thomas Dai]

Rich,
Thanks for this and the 'play off the USGA hcps players "index" rather than his home handicap' tip.
All the best

[Pete Lavallee]

Lyne,

I had an interesting experience this week that reinforced your dilemma. The wife and I played a 113 year old 9 hole course  this week. The greens were very firm fast and sloped; I only needed to hit one putt an inch to cover 15 feet! However they had the longest fairway grass (fescue) at over an inch I had ever seen. Needless to say the course played longer as a result; 6058 yards for the men and 5548 yards from the forward tees. Mrs L was only able to reach two holes in regulation, a 125 yard par 3 and a 290 yard downhill par 4; not a fun day for her. After the round we has a nice chat with the PGA Pro. He indicated they were struggling (his exact words) with adding a new set of forward tees. His argument was well documented: we have the handicap system to account for the greater distance, should we be trying to make everyone a scratch player by allowing them to reach every hole in regulation? He even indicated that he had one women who shoots 120 for 9 holes! He also confirmed my suspicion that the biggest obstacle to a new forward tee set where his own women members! I was like talking to a wall, he just couldn't conceive that women would have more FUN if they could actually hit greens in regulation instead of playing and endless string of par 5 and par 6 holes. He was a second generation Head Pro and this might have possibly influenced his mind set in not changing things. But he did acknowledge the fact that to improve business they might actually have to be more accomadating of shorter hitting women. I doubt they had but a handfull of women members who could reach even their  somewhat shorter holes in regulation.

[Bryan Izatt]

On his splendid photo tour of Trump Aberdeen, Tiggles - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57072.0.html - Bryan Izatt mentions that the course yardages, ratings and slopes for the furthest back Black tees and the White tees he played are 7428/77.4/149 and 6329/72.3/133 for a par of 72.

I'm curious about this.

What is the base point used for calculation purposes? Black, white or some other colour? Presumably there is one? For example, if as in the case of Tiggles, the rating is 77.4 from the blacks and 72.3 from the whites do you add 5.1 to your base handicap when playing the blacks or deduct 5.1 when playing from the whites?

Also, anyone happen to know what the UK calculated SSS is from the various tees at Tiggles?
 
All the best

The USGA course rating system is reasonably complex.  Here is a link to a primer on it.

http://www.usga.org/Content.aspx?id=25369

There is a course handicap calculator on that site as well.  If my USGA index was 10.1 my course handicap from the black tees would be 13 while it would be 12 from the white tees.  I don't think that this system works very well when there is such a huge disparity between the slopes of the two tees.  I am likely to be much more than 1 stroke worse if I tried to play the black tees.  In any event, if I played to my handicap in a round from the black tees it would give me a net score of roughly 77.

Relevant to this thread, from the USGA site:

"A female scratch golfer is a player who can play to a Course Handicap of zero on any and all rated golf courses. A female scratch golfer, for rating purposes, can hit tee shots an average of 210 yards and can reach a 400-yard hole in two shots at sea level."

"A female bogey golfer is a player who has a Course Handicap of approximately 24 on a course of standard difficulty. She can hit tee shots an average of 150 yards and can reach a 280-yard hole in two shots."

Realistically there are very few women golfers who hit it scratch length or even bogey lengths.

For men there are many who have scratch length and many more with bogey length which are respectively 250 (470) and 200 (370)

____________________________________________


Turns out there was an open competition at TIGLS a couple of days before I was there.  The results listed a SSS of75.5, although it doesn't indicate what tees were played.  The competition scratch score was 78.5.  It played tough even for the scratch players, although there was an 8 who shot an 80.

www.trumpgolfscotland.com/files/Mens%20Open%20Scores.pdf‎


___________________________________________

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bryan,

From the courses I visit, there are usually 4-10 females who hit it 160-180 and another 10-20 who hit it 140, not 150.  Even the USGA is a bit unrealistic about how females play golf in America.  Just MHO.

[Thomas Dai]

"The USGA course rating system is reasonably complex. Here is a link to a primer on it - http://www.usga.org/Content.aspx?id=25369 "
I hope this system wasn't in place when Alan Shepard played golf on that big lump of green cheese in the sky, or was that just practice?!
All the best

[Andrew Buck]

Andrew,

What do hole handicap ratings have to do with what holes players love to play?
I guess, every course has 6 holes that players hate, because their ratings are 1 through 6. Every course has 6 holes that players are ambivalent about, because their ratings are 7 through 12. And, every course has 6 holes that players love, because their handicap ratings are 13 through 18.
 
Or, did I get that backwards?
 

I guess I read too much into your post.  Of course anyone can love any hole for any reason.

Because I understood the thread to be about handicap and not enjoyment, I was simply pointing out that poorer players struggle more on par 5's in relation to scratch players, than they do on shorter holes.

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