[Tom_Doak]

Royal Melbourne and Barnbougle are the top 2 courses I want to see. Trust me, if I had an invitation to play them or Augusta National, I would go there if the timing worked in a heart beat.

Jim:

I'll be at Royal Melbourne December 7-11.  Consider yourself invited to come along and play it, and maybe then I'll have an excuse to get down to Barnbougle, too.

[Jim Franklin]

Royal Melbourne and Barnbougle are the top 2 courses I want to see. Trust me, if I had an invitation to play them or Augusta National, I would go there if the timing worked in a heart beat.

Jim:

I'll be at Royal Melbourne December 7-11.  Consider yourself invited to come along and play it, and maybe then I'll have an excuse to get down to Barnbougle, too.

I will talk to my wife tonight. Considering I played Streamsong on her birthday, she may say yes. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving.

[Dan Kelly]

Royal Melbourne and Barnbougle are the top 2 courses I want to see. Trust me, if I had an invitation to play them or Augusta National, I would go there if the timing worked in a heart beat.

Jim:

I'll be at Royal Melbourne December 7-11.  Consider yourself invited to come along and play it, and maybe then I'll have an excuse to get down to Barnbougle, too.

Some guys have all the luck.

Hope your holds, tonight!

I will talk to my wife tonight. Considering I played Streamsong on her birthday, she may say yes. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving.

[Jim Franklin]

Sadly I will not be making the trek to Australia. My wife has a nursing school exam and I told her I would take care of the kids. I want to thank Tom for the generous offer.

[Tom_Doak]

Sadly I will not be making the trek to Australia. My wife has a nursing school exam and I told her I would take care of the kids. I want to thank Tom for the generous offer.

Jim:

Sorry to hear it ... I figured the only way it would work was if your wife could come along.  Enjoy the time with your family.

Best wishes,


Tom Doak
from the Detroit airport

[Jim Franklin]

Sadly I will not be making the trek to Australia. My wife has a nursing school exam and I told her I would take care of the kids. I want to thank Tom for the generous offer.

Jim:

Sorry to hear it ... I figured the only way it would work was if your wife could come along.  Enjoy the time with your family.

Best wishes,


Tom Doak
from the Detroit airport

\

Funny thing is, she would have no problem letting me do this if the timing was right. I would rather do it with her but kids need someone's attention. Maybe some day though.

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: My recollection was that we had dinner on your birthday at Ballyneal.

[John Kavanaugh]

Did anyone see the fat guy on the World Series of Poker wearing the Pacific Dunes shirt?  Must be an easy walk.

[Julian Wise]

It is interesting to see a few people  thought Coore/Crenshaw courses were yours which leads me to the following question: I just returned from Streamsong and played both the Red (C/C course) and the Blue (your course) and it appeared to me that there was at least one hole (a par 3) on the Red Course that had all of the characteristics of your design.  Did you and Coore Crenshaw collaborate on any of the holes?  BTW, the par 3 I am talking about was one of my favorite holes on the Red course.  That being said, I thought both Pac Dunes and Old McDonald were superior to both courses at Streamsong (and I really liked Streamsong).  Thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

It is interesting to see a few people  thought Coore/Crenshaw courses were yours which leads me to the following question: I just returned from Streamsong and played both the Red (C/C course) and the Blue (your course) and it appeared to me that there was at least one hole (a par 3) on the Red Course that had all of the characteristics of your design.  Did you and Coore Crenshaw collaborate on any of the holes?  BTW, the par 3 I am talking about was one of my favorite holes on the Red course. //  Thanks.

Julian:

Bill Coore and I collaborated on the routing for the two courses -- several holes from the Blue course are taken from one of Bill's first attempts to route an 18-hole course on the property, while a few on the Red (mostly at the far end) were suggested by me when we started to figure out how to turn it into 36 holes.  However, none of the par-3 holes on the Red course are in areas that I tried to route first.  

Once we settled on who was going to build which course, we worked separately, so there's nothing about the bunkering or the greens design or any of the details on the Red course that I had anything to do with, and nothing on the Blue that was Bill's suggestion, apart from the green sites for the holes as mentioned above.

[Jim Nugent]

Tom Doak, you've said before how important green sites are to your routings.  Can you tell us what you look for in green sites?  What makes for a great green site? 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak, you've said before how important green sites are to your routings.  Can you tell us what you look for in green sites?  What makes for a great green site? 

I don't know that there is an easy answer to this question, but here are a couple of things I look for:

1.  Variety.  I don't want them all sitting up, I don't want them all sitting down.  But I like to find places where the natural drainage goes away in multiple directions, so that I don't have to fill at the green.

2.  A cool natural feature to work off of, or tie into.  Ideally, the green is located somewhere that your eye is naturally drawn to.

3.  A good background.  I learned from taking pictures of golf courses, that the hole looks much better if the flag on the green is flying against something that isn't too busy.  A big mound or dune behind the green, so that the flag is profiled against it, is great.  So is the sky, or the ocean, or a dark shadow, or another fairway, or a big clump of trees across the property.  What you don't want is to set the green at a height where the background contours are awkward and the flag is seen just over the top of them.

4.  A good transition to the next tee.  I place more importance on this with every course I design.  If there is a cool green site, but it necessitates a 100-yard walk to get to where you could tee off for the next hole, I'll often pass it up.

5.  Good natural contour.  Not too steep that the green has to be shelved in, and not so flat that there's no place for the water to drain away from it.

[John Cowden]

Not looking to stir any pot, but if I was spending time with Tom Doak and the subject of his Dismal course came up, I would want to know how the course turned out for him and for those who had the pleasure of playing it during the Ren Cup, or at any other time.  More bluntly, is Tom satisfied he accomplished his goals in the design?  I know I've delighted in my too brief three+ rounds there, but I've yet to hear the designer's take following the Ren Cup exam with such a formidable band of examiners.  And it's probably too much to hope for truly candid responses in a public forum, but if you don't ask...

[Tim Lewis]

Tom Doak, you've said before how important green sites are to your routings.  Can you tell us what you look for in green sites?  What makes for a great green site? 

I don't know that there is an easy answer to this question, but here are a couple of things I look for:

1.  Variety.  I don't want them all sitting up, I don't want them all sitting down.  But I like to find places where the natural drainage goes away in multiple directions, so that I don't have to fill at the green.

2.  A cool natural feature to work off of, or tie into.  Ideally, the green is located somewhere that your eye is naturally drawn to.

3.  A good background.  I learned from taking pictures of golf courses, that the hole looks much better if the flag on the green is flying against something that isn't too busy.  A big mound or dune behind the green, so that the flag is profiled against it, is great.  So is the sky, or the ocean, or a dark shadow, or another fairway, or a big clump of trees across the property.  What you don't want is to set the green at a height where the background contours are awkward and the flag is seen just over the top of them.

4.  A good transition to the next tee.  I place more importance on this with every course I design.  If there is a cool green site, but it necessitates a 100-yard walk to get to where you could tee off for the next hole, I'll often pass it up.

5.  Good natural contour.  Not too steep that the green has to be shelved in, and not so flat that there's no place for the water to drain away from it.

Mr. Doak

One question that I have developed in my time studying golf course architecture is to what extent green sites have to be altered in order to function. I think that I have heard you say at some time that you look for natural fairways, and that bunkers and greens always have to be built in some way. Here though you say that you look for natural contour in green sites. I would be interested to know whether or not it would be possible to find 18 natural green sites on a non sand based site that would drain and function properly without doing anything other than seeding properly.I know that this question ventures quite far from the original post, but I think the answer will be simple enough that it would not require a thread of its own.

[Tom_Doak]

I would be interested to know whether or not it would be possible to find 18 natural green sites on a non sand based site that would drain and function properly without doing anything other than seeding properly.I know that this question ventures quite far from the original post, but I think the answer will be simple enough that it would not require a thread of its own.

Tim:

If that's ever been done, I don't know where.  Even Sand Hills had a handful of its greens modified by a few inches here or there.

However, if that was your ideal, you could get a lot closer to it than most architects ever do.  I will bet you a dollar that Jeff Brauer has NEVER built a green where he left the natural contours alone, and he has built more projects than I have.

[Tom_Doak]

Not looking to stir any pot, but if I was spending time with Tom Doak and the subject of his Dismal course came up, I would want to know how the course turned out for him and for those who had the pleasure of playing it during the Ren Cup, or at any other time.  More bluntly, is Tom satisfied he accomplished his goals in the design?  I know I've delighted in my too brief three+ rounds there, but I've yet to hear the designer's take following the Ren Cup exam with such a formidable band of examiners.  And it's probably too much to hope for truly candid responses in a public forum, but if you don't ask...

JCowden:

I have not had time to play the new course at Dismal any more than you have, so I'm not really any more qualified than you to answer your question.  I'm very happy with what I've seen of it so far, and the only suggestion I had after the Renaissance Cup was to take down some of the native stuff on the bank short and left of the 18th green ... which was cool during the construction but had become a jungle during the grow-in.  The hole is plenty hard without it.

The proof in the pudding will be whether Chris Johnston is happy with what it's done for the club, 3-5 years from now.  But, from my perspective, I don't think we could have done much better for him.

[Chris Johnston]

John/Tom:

I couldn't be more thrilled with the new Doak Course.  Sometimes, we have to remind ourselves out here that it's brand spanking new…the grow-in conditioning was so good we actually began nitpicking conditioning in the preview year.  Really does makes us fortunate.  

I've been on the Red as much as anyone aside from Jagger, Clay, and their team...especially if you include walking with Lydia and Max.  The members are thrilled with their new course, and that is very satisfying.  We all believed, and believed that the Red course would enhance an already terrific place.  It has raised the experience, it was a great raw site made into a wonderful golf course, it has variety is spades, and is a blast to play.  18 outstanding holes with tons of variety, and very little earthwork, and playable for all levels of golfer and designed to be fun in widely variable wind conditions.  Fits the place too.  I'd imagine, on the whole, that's incredibly hard for the architect to execute…this one is a tribute to Tom, Don, and all of the guys.

On the green sites discussed above, I believe Tom hit a homerun at Dismal as well.  With natural features in abundance, Tom used them as backdrops and (I think) 14 greens took about an hour to build from native state to seeding.  This artistic effort made 18 terrific good holes, to me transcendent...almost into 18 works of art…there is more to a hole than the hole.  While I don't know which it would be, the most weak hole on the Red could likely be the best hole on most courses.  That, in itself, is a feat.

I've been fortunate to have played most of the best regarded courses in the world, and I've never seen anything like what Tom delivered at Dismal.  18 great holes, outstanding backdrops, visuals and site use, unbelievable restraint on a very good site.  Nothing over done…Goldilocks…it fits, just right.  That, friends, is a gift to the game.

I don't think we need 3-5 years, the Red course is exactly what Dismal River needed, and it's far better than I ever imagined it could or would be.  It took a ton of trust between Ton, Don, their teams, and (most importantly) the members…and alot of hard work.

For the first time, we're actually discussing a cap memberships.  That, in good part, is a tribute to Tom.

Then again, maybe we'll just add another course. .  If we do, Tom Doak will be the architect.  

[Tim Martin]

I've been fortunate to have played most of the best regarded courses in the world, and I've never seen anything like what Tom delivered at Dismal.  18 great holes, outstanding backdrops, visuals and site use, unbelievable restraint on a very good site.  Nothing over done…Goldilocks…it fits, just right.  That, friends, is a gift to the game.

Chris-That is an interesting quote and I wonder if you could expound on what makes  Dismal Doak so different/unique("and I've never seen anything like what Tom delivered at Dismal")  from the "best regarded courses in the world". Thanks.

[Chris Johnston]

I've been fortunate to have played most of the best regarded courses in the world, and I've never seen anything like what Tom delivered at Dismal.  18 great holes, outstanding backdrops, visuals and site use, unbelievable restraint on a very good site.  Nothing over done…Goldilocks…it fits, just right.  That, friends, is a gift to the game.

Chris-That is an interesting quote and I wonder if you could expound on what makes  Dismal Doak so different/unique("and I've never seen anything like what Tom delivered at Dismal")  from the "best regarded courses in the world". Thanks.

Hi Tim,

I've played a lot of courses with outstanding holes, outstanding stretches of holes, courses with outstanding variety, and courses with off the scale natural beauty.  I've never played a course that I'd say has all four of those attributes.  I've never played a course with 18 very good holes, variety in theme, and views/backdrops like Tom delivered at Dismal River.  I suppose part of that can be attributed to an outstanding site, but the routing chosen and built by Tom and crew makes for a beautiful, challenging, and unique golf journey.  Tom didn't have to make it look like it fits, he let the holes be what they wanted.  I can't give him enough credit for not doing too much.  Add to that Don's innovative irrigation system created in tandem with the design and the look, feel, and play is (to me) transcendent.

Hole after hole, the hole and the surrounds, all I hear is "wow".  Knowing what was done, hole after hole, I often find myself often saying that's incredible…incredible that (with little cut/fill) every hole, for me, brings emotion.  Few courses do that for me…almost as if the game doesn't matter.  When you play it, and learn it, you just realize you are experiencing something special…natural Sandhills beauty abounds.  The course feels like it has been there forever and, in a way, it has.  I used to have the same emotions about Sand Hills.

I can't say enough about what Tom did and, yes, I've never seen anything like it before.

Hope it helps.

[Tim Martin]

I've been fortunate to have played most of the best regarded courses in the world, and I've never seen anything like what Tom delivered at Dismal.  18 great holes, outstanding backdrops, visuals and site use, unbelievable restraint on a very good site.  Nothing over done…Goldilocks…it fits, just right.  That, friends, is a gift to the game.

Chris-That is an interesting quote and I wonder if you could expound on what makes  Dismal Doak so different/unique("and I've never seen anything like what Tom delivered at Dismal")  from the "best regarded courses in the world". Thanks.

Hi Tim,

I've played a lot of courses with outstanding holes, outstanding stretches of holes, courses with outstanding variety, and courses with off the scale natural beauty.  I've never played a course that I'd say has all four of those attributes.  I've never played a course with 18 very good holes, variety in theme, and views/backdrops like Tom delivered at Dismal River.  I suppose part of that can be attributed to an outstanding site, but the routing chosen and built by Tom and crew makes for a beautiful, challenging, and unique golf journey.  Tom didn't have to make it look like it fits, he let the holes be what they wanted.  I can't give him enough credit for not doing too much.  Add to that Don's innovative irrigation system created in tandem with the design and the look, feel, and play is (to me) transcendent.

Hole after hole, the hole and the surrounds, all I hear is "wow".  Knowing what was done, hole after hole, I often find myself often saying that's incredible…incredible that (with little cut/fill) every hole, for me, brings emotion.  Few courses do that for me…almost as if the game doesn't matter.  When you play it, and learn it, you just realize you are experiencing something special…natural Sandhills beauty abounds.  The course feels like it has been there forever and, in a way, it has.  I used to have the same emotions about Sand Hills.

I can't say enough about what Tom did and, yes, I've never seen anything like it before.

Hope it helps.

Assuming that you have played Cypress Point, Sand Hills and Fishers Island they don't deliver the 4 attributes you are describing? I picked those three to contrast as they are in the GD Top 10 US. I wont bother to reference anything international but there might be a few contenders that fit your description. Just asking because you do realize the gravity of your assertion right?

[David Davis]

Chris,

Your post put a big smile on my face. It's awesome that you can own/run a place that brings about that much emotion in you. That's Living the Dream and I have nothing but admiration for you and your situation.

However, I didn't have the same level of excitement you have for the course or anywhere near that. Yes, I think the course is a great natural routing and that TD did everything he needed to and could do with it to make it as good as it can be. I don't have a single issue with it other than hoping that it firms up and plays more like a links course, which I'm guessing it will or maybe already does. Ok, outside of the ##$@#$%% horse flies, which I really don't like on the last 3 holes.

The course is not in my future Doak Top 5 and just can't be placed in the category of the courses Tim mentioned with the exception of Sand Hills. I guess I just wasn't blown away by that course either. Despite having my best round ever, I should love it right?

I just can't help but feel that if these courses were anywhere in the UK/Ireland they would just be one of the many with excellent routings but not close to the best.

Clearly my opinion is in the minority here on GCA, which is fine. I still have lots to learn.

[Chris Johnston]

I've been fortunate to have played most of the best regarded courses in the world, and I've never seen anything like what Tom delivered at Dismal.  18 great holes, outstanding backdrops, visuals and site use, unbelievable restraint on a very good site.  Nothing over done…Goldilocks…it fits, just right.  That, friends, is a gift to the game.

Chris-That is an interesting quote and I wonder if you could expound on what makes  Dismal Doak so different/unique("and I've never seen anything like what Tom delivered at Dismal")  from the "best regarded courses in the world". Thanks.

Hi Tim,

I've played a lot of courses with outstanding holes, outstanding stretches of holes, courses with outstanding variety, and courses with off the scale natural beauty.  I've never played a course that I'd say has all four of those attributes.  I've never played a course with 18 very good holes, variety in theme, and views/backdrops like Tom delivered at Dismal River.  I suppose part of that can be attributed to an outstanding site, but the routing chosen and built by Tom and crew makes for a beautiful, challenging, and unique golf journey.  Tom didn't have to make it look like it fits, he let the holes be what they wanted.  I can't give him enough credit for not doing too much.  Add to that Don's innovative irrigation system created in tandem with the design and the look, feel, and play is (to me) transcendent.

Hole after hole, the hole and the surrounds, all I hear is "wow".  Knowing what was done, hole after hole, I often find myself often saying that's incredible…incredible that (with little cut/fill) every hole, for me, brings emotion.  Few courses do that for me…almost as if the game doesn't matter.  When you play it, and learn it, you just realize you are experiencing something special…natural Sandhills beauty abounds.  The course feels like it has been there forever and, in a way, it has.  I used to have the same emotions about Sand Hills.

I can't say enough about what Tom did and, yes, I've never seen anything like it before.

Hope it helps.

Assuming that you have played Cypress Point, Sand Hills and Fishers Island they don't deliver the 4 attributes you are describing? I picked those three to contrast as they are in the GD Top 10 US. I wont bother to reference anything international but there might be a few contenders that fit your description. Just asking because you do realize the gravity of your assertion right?

Tim,

Yes, I've played all of the ones you mentioned, and each very good.  To me (and it's just my own opinion), Cypress doesn't have 18 outstanding holes, but the outstanding holes they do have are as good as there is.  Similar thing with Fishers.  Sand Hills and Pine Valley (again, to me) hit all the marks.  The simple point I was trying to make was Tom did a phenominal job on a lot of levels.  And, yes, I think Tom's effort at Dismal River really is that good…especially with a few years of maturity.

David,

Remember, you played the Red course with, maybe, 2 months of grow-in, it was a baby, and I can certainly understand if Sandhills golf isn't your thing.  By the RenCup, the course was playing quite firm and fast…what a difference a few additional months made!  The Deerflies are a one month (June) occurrence, last year was pefect for them, and there is little that can be done lest we do real harm, which we won't.  I've played golf in a lot of buggy places, use proper spray, and suppose I just don't let them get to me.  

I certainly can't take exception with your opinion about Scotland/Ireland…I love many courses there as well.  

My post was a compliment to Tom Doak, for hitting all the marks, on the mark, and I believe that's quite rare.  I certainly understand others, including you, may have favorites that they prefer. Not a thing wrong with that, my friend.

I believe we are witnessing something very special with Mr. Doak.  Bill and Ben, too.

Yes, I have a passion for good golf.  I like cool things in most every form.

 

[Brett_Morrissy]

1. Barnbougle Dunes
2. Ballyneal
3. Old Mac
4. Pac Dunes
5. St. Andrews beach
6. Cape Kidnappers

[Jeff Blume]

1.  Ballyneal

Sorry Tom but that is the only one I have played.  I guess I need to get out more.  Having said that, I think you did a masterful job blending the course into the existing terrain.  It was probably difficult to decide on a routing, as the property is outstanding and there are a multitude of great golf holes on that site that you didn't get to build (it must have been hard to stop at 18).  

The day we played it was blowing around 40mph and was 35 degrees.  If that wasn't enough, it was also misting which eventually turned into a steady rain.  Even with all that, you created a place that was a very pleasant experience (after we all disregarded the score ), and that is perhaps the best compliment you can get.

Well done

[Kevin Pallier]

Pacific Dunes
Old Mac
Barnbougle Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
St. Andrews Beach
Sebonack

Tom

Any chance for an updated tally ?

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