[Mark Chaplin]

Mr Mayring failed to declare an interest, Chappers is cooking his and Gabriella's breakfasts this week!

I'm interested to hear that Rye is green, lets hope the new watering system is used sparingly. I am a massive Rye fan usually getting to play there a couple of times a year. It is however too quirky for me to play every week.

[Sean_A]

locks so far

Ballybunion Old
Ganton
Lahinch
Muirfield
Prestwick (back in due to demand)
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Rye
St Georges Hill (the guy who pushed has doubts)
Sunny Old
Swinley Forest
The Island
TOC
Turnberry
Walton Heath Old
Woking


Serious Contenders

Cruden Bay
Formby
Ganton
N Berwick
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Liverpool
St Enodoc
St Georges Hill
Swinley Forest
The Island
Trump International
Woking

On the Table

Carnoustie
Co Sligo
Enniscrone
Muirfield
N Berwick
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Birkdale
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Royal Worlington
Sunny New
Swinley Forest
Turnberry
Woking
Woodhall Spa

Okay, Bart and Brian have spoken and Mark has spoken again.  

I think we can begin to see the problem of lists - too many courses for the number of slots.  The number of locks has gone up 2.5 times my original number and I am still disappointed a few others are out such as St Enodoc and North Berwick - they would be in well ahead of many on the lock list if I am the Czar.  The very interesting thing is the deal with the heathland courses.  Do folks want to choose a proper heathland such as WHO or bail a bit and put forward St Georges Hill, Woking or Sunny?  All fine courses, but far from what they should be.  Sunny Old was the only lock for me and it is slightly disconcerting to have this as the sole rep especially when I much prefer Woking's superior greens. But geez, the walk in the park scores are off the charts.

The one selection which seriously disappoints is Turnberry.  People fall for the views and forget there are holes which fail to impress out there with not nearly enough very good holes to balance the books.

Anybody else?

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Heathland-wise, I'd personally throw West Sussex and Alwoodley on to the table.... As you probably know, I'd at least air Porthcawl at dinner too... And possibly Baltray (the latter ahead of County Sligo for sure)...

[Sean_A]

locks so far

Ballybunion Old
Carnoustie
Ganton
Lahinch
Machrihanish (out of nowhere!)
Muirfield
Portmarnock
Prestwick (back in due to demand)
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Rye
St Georges Hill (the guy who pushed this has doubts)
Sunny Old
Swinley Forest
The Island
TOC
Turnberry
Walton Heath Old
Woking


Serious Contenders

Cruden Bay
Formby
Ganton
Kingsbarns
N Berwick
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Liverpool
St Enodoc
St Georges Hill
Swinley Forest
The Island
Trump International
Turnberry
Walton Heath Old
Waterville
Woking

On the Table

Alwoodley
Baltray
Carnoustie
Co Sligo
Enniscrone
Loch Lomond
Muirfield
N Berwick
Pennard
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Birkdale
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Lytham
Royal Porthcawl
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Royal Worlington
Sunny New
Swinley Forest
Turnberry
West Sussex
Woking
Woodhall Spa

Ally surfaces and Brian weighs in big-time.  It has finally happened, I am finding the list too sterile with courses like Portmarnock, Carnoustie and Muirfield.  At least Turnberry was kicked out - tee hee.  Its  not the way I would go if I were Czar. On the other hand, the inclusion of Machrihanish (which I have more than serious reservations about) is at least interesting.  When I look at Machrihanish I see holiday golf.  And when I think of holiday golf Machrihanish doesn't hold a candle to Pennard so I could never consider the idea of Mach on the list. Somebody has to support me on this - surely?

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Lock’s
Alwoodley.  As good as any London track with more variety than most.
Ganton.  The stand out inland course in GB&I
Pennard.  If one is looking to play the best of GB&I you should include a wild and natural links. Brora or  Elie also come to mind but if you missed all three you’d miss something very special.  Pennard merits it’s place.
Portmarnock.  Admittedly only played once but seems to me the links course which is the epitome of  the analogy of “the subtlety of a fine l wine that grows on you”.
Turnberry. I can see a few debating points but no more than most of others.
Royal Aberdeen. Oozed quality.
Royal Worlington – if ever a course was a “must see as it will confound your expectations” this is it. It deserves itss place on it’s merit as a fine and interesting test of golf.



I’ll happily resign my place from any panel that can’t see that Prestwick and North Berwick are locks.

Out Woodhall Spa and Walton Heath Old.  WHO just doesn’t work for me.  Flat land and a course defined by nasty bunkers.  Have played it 3x and walked it in the US Open qualifier following good golfers at least as many times. I have clear preference for the new as having the more interesting terrain and shots.


Interesting that the West Lancs area doesn’t attract much interest.  I think Hoylake is the most interesting, probably not a Lock but I’m prepared to be outvoted on that.  Personally I can’t see any other contenders there, but the other Open venues should get consideration?

Finally I think Brancaster has something special about it and would put it in the mix for discussion.  Again if you never experienced the charm of the course you’ve missed something special.  Along with Woking there’s something terribly appealing about how fine and ‘English’ the Golf is.

[Mark Pearce]

Simon,

It seems I got into a linguistic pickle yesterday.  My use of the word "hated" has been picked up on another thread and now I see I used the word "bad" in relation to one or more holes at NBWL.  It's not fair to say there are bad holes at NBWL, there aren't.  However, I don't find 2-5 a compelling stretch and 8 is not a great hole, either as a par 4 or 5.  9 really gets it going but the 10, whilst a good hole isn't brilliant.  From there on in it's as good as anywhere I have played, excellent hole after excellent hole with a slight, but only slight tailing off at 18.  Certainly top 50 in the UK but perhaps not, I think, World top 100.   That said, it may be a serious contender, looking at others on Sean's list, now that Muirfield and Ganton have moved up.  (N.B. There are, obviously, dozens of courses on these world top 100 lists I haven't played.  I make my judgment based on courses that don't make it or that are in the lower echelons that I have played.)

Sean,

After revisiting Woodhall Spa in the Spring I find it difficult to believe that it is on the table.

[Eric Smith]

Thank you, Sean! Now I know why I deplore reading the "experts" telling me which are (or aren't) the top courses...I am a no good HOLIDAY GOLFER. Pennard, Machrihanish, N. Berwick...all in my top 10.

[Sean_A]

locks so far

Alwoodley
Ballybunion Old
Carnoustie
Ganton (back by popular demand)
Lahinch
Machrihanish (out of nowhere!)
Muirfield
North Berwick (like a yo yo)
Pennard (geez!)
Portmarnock
Prestwick (back in due to demand)
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Royal Worlington (Brian said the fatal words "I don't think a 9 holer can even be on the table" - wrong approach for best courses)
Rye
St Georges Hill (the guy who pushed this has doubts)
Sunny Old
Swinley Forest
The Island
TOC
Turnberry (back by popular demand)
Walton Heath Old
Woking


Serious Contenders

Cruden Bay
Formby
Ganton
Kingsbarns
N Berwick
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Liverpool
St Enodoc
St Georges Hill
Swinley Forest
The Island
Trump International
Turnberry
Walton Heath Old
Waterville
Woking

On the Table

Alwoodley
Baltray
Carnoustie
Co Sligo
Enniscrone
Loch Lomond
Muirfield
N Berwick
Pennard
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Birkdale
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Lytham
Royal Porthcawl
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Worlington
Sunny New
Swinley Forest
Turnberry
West Sussex
Woking
Woodhall Spa (off the table?)

Spangles speaks, but is it just getting crazy now?  22 courses can never work can it?  The Unofficial GCA.com rankings included 29 GB&I courses!  Maybe this crowd is being judicial.  If it gives you any consolation, I feel the same about N Berwick.  I really believe that if a list like this has no room N Berwick, St Enodoc, TOC and Rye than something has gone seriously wrong in the world of golf.  Just as a hint, N Berwick made 38 in the Unofficial GCA.com rankings.  We have some hard headed folks round here. Why no mention of Formby?  You were to be my champion.

Eric - I am with you.  I don't need nor want a deadly serious test of golf - especially while on holiday.

Ciao

[Craig Disher]

1. Rye is a lot greener. There is a huge difference in color between fairways (green) and surrounding areas (brown). In Deal everything is a shade of brown and blends together.

 If the fairways are green in this glorious weather, then what hope do they have for the rest of the year? Will we ever see those lovely straw yellow fairways again?  Sad to hear, but, like Chappers, I am hopeful that they tone it down a bit in the future. Interesting to hear it's the fairways that are green when the supposed justification was to save fescue roughs?

I walked around Rye early this morning and there is a noticeable difference between the fairways today and 3 days ago - they are greener and even though the rough looks brown, the ground is quite soft and there is a noticeable green tint taking over.  The change wasn't caused by the fairway watering. Two days ago Rye was drenched with a day and a half of persistent rain. The lawn in the front of our house also changed from brown to green.  I suspect Rye is now playing like it does during the winter although with the forecast for the next few days, it will return to f&f fairly quickly - as it was before the rain.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Why no mention of Formby?  You were to be my champion.



Ciao

I can see Formby if it's to be a list of "Courses you need to see if you want to experience all that's best of GB&I" as offering hybrid qualities with a great overall experience.  However it just missed out on the Must Play/Lock thread.   Sadly.

(To be honest this thread makes Top 10 in the  "Least defined listing of all time". It surely means different things to different folks?  So I just went with gut reaction to pick the "Locks". It's certainly top 50 in the UK but then 22 is still a small no.)

[Thomas Dai]

I'm enjoying this thread as it's helping me target courses I haven't played but maybe should aim to play one day.

I was wondering however, since the thread has developed into a discussion of GB&I lock-ins whether this particular element of the discussion could be moved to a separate thread. This might also help for future reference via the search engine.

All the best.

[Sean_A]

1. Rye is a lot greener. There is a huge difference in color between fairways (green) and surrounding areas (brown). In Deal everything is a shade of brown and blends together.

 If the fairways are green in this glorious weather, then what hope do they have for the rest of the year? Will we ever see those lovely straw yellow fairways again?  Sad to hear, but, like Chappers, I am hopeful that they tone it down a bit in the future. Interesting to hear it's the fairways that are green when the supposed justification was to save fescue roughs?

I walked around Rye early this morning and there is a noticeable difference between the fairways today and 3 days ago - they are greener and even though the rough looks brown, the ground is quite soft and there is a noticeable green tint taking over.  The change wasn't caused by the fairway watering. Two days ago Rye was drenched with a day and a half of persistent rain. The lawn in the front of our house also changed from brown to green.  I suspect Rye is now playing like it does during the winter although with the forecast for the next few days, it will return to f&f fairly quickly - as it was before the rain.

Yes, my garden lawn was completely brown - to the point where everybody told me it was dead.  I said have no fear.  After a few days of good rain, the green is coming back.  I shall cut it today!

Spangles

I didn't think Formby was a lock, but when I see some of the other courses touted it is disappointing that Formby doesn't get its due.  Given the list now up, Formby very comfortably slots in.

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

And Alwoodley - a lock?? I haven't played it but that is strong given it's never sniffed that World 100 list. I'm playing it in September so will report back!

Brian

I implore you, think for yourself. Also, are you a member at Deal or have any relationships with the club? (I have no idea, just want to see more transparency.)

Moving on, if SGH gets removed due to that doubt of mine then let me repeat: Sunningdale Old has a life preserver hole too -- and that water looks dumber than SGH's. So wipe SO.

Tony, we'll just have to disagree. I think WHO has lovely ground movement, just the right amount to create interest. It's a great walk. (I've played it four times.)

Craig, okay fair enough. I guess the question is, did Ulrich see both courses prior to the rains that hit Rye but perhaps not Deal?

[Sean_A]

Sorry Mark, two folks say Sunny Old is a lock.  You are the only one who is touting the Hill that loudly.  Besides, I don't mind Sunny's water hole in the least - tee hee.  I am not stuck in an anti-water funk on heathlands.  At least the water is used whereas at the Hill that par 3 is a very odd duck.  I gotta believe there is a story behind that hole.  Although the heathlands course I really question is Swinley.  Great course, wonderful ambience, but in my experience the conditioning has always been sub par for top notch heathlands.  Usually, slowish, bumpy greens.  I definitely thing the Hill trumps it and Woking is its equal - those greens!

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

I cannot believe you have not played Ganton Best inland course in GB&I. Sunny Old having played it is not as good as Alwoodley. The 5th sucks as I have said in other threads. Having seen Trump several times (though not played it) I would not have it in the top 100 in its present confused state.

Jon

[Tom_Doak]

I wonder how many more pages this thread will need to go before everyone realizes that these rankings are completely a matter of opinion.

[Jon Wiggett]

I wonder how many more pages this thread will need to go before everyone realizes that these rankings are completely a matter of opinion.

Bit like the Doak Scale eh Tom

[Simon Holt]

Gil Hanse was recently quoted saying North Berwick is possibly the second most architecturally significant course after TOC.  

It has a stunning backdrop, originality galore, beautiful flow and excellent greens.  Hardly any visiting golfers, if any at all, leave the 18th green without commenting that its one of the best courses they have ever played.

The plethora of tour pros that sacrificed practise rounds at the Open, or slipped in an 18 at North Berwick in the evening and RAVED about it, would tend to suggest if even has something to keep the longest of hitters happy, too. (Bubba hit 5 iron to 18)

Clearly I am very biased but I don't think it's too 'home town' for me to say its more than just 'on the table'...it's feet are well under the table at 68.  That might be a little high but it's certainly Top 100 in the world, no questions.  I 100% agree that there are some "mehh" holes but not many.

At the end of the day, surely an argument can be made that the best course in the world is one that guys or gals want to play over and over again?  I know that would be my yardstick if I had the ability, knowledge, time and money to build a course of my own.  Anyone who says there are 100 courses; no 50 courses, that are more fun to play than North Berwick...is smoking something far stronger than I ever have.

[Tom_Doak]

I wonder how many more pages this thread will need to go before everyone realizes that these rankings are completely a matter of opinion.

Bit like the Doak Scale eh Tom

The Doak Scale is just one man's opinion.  That's what gives it some weight.  These rankings are consensus opinions, which quickly fall apart when you realize that there is not really that much consensus that everyone can agree on.

[Tom_Doak]

At the end of the day, surely an argument can be made that the best course in the world is one that guys or gals want to play over and over again?  I know that would be my yardstick if I had the ability, knowledge, time and money to build a course of my own.  Anyone who says there are 100 courses; no 50 courses, that are more fun to play than North Berwick...is smoking something far stronger than I ever have.

If everyone agreed that the rankings were about "fun to play" then North Berwick would be in the top 30.  But, there are some people (not me) who think that to be ranked that high, a course needs to be strong enough to host some sort of championship, and North Berwick is just dismissed by some panelists for being "too easy".  That's the reason there is no real consensus about most of these courses, because nobody really agrees about what the qualifications are for being a "great golf course".  And that's as it should be ... much better than writing a stupid definition of what it means and warping the results away from what the panelists really think.

[Simon Holt]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  It's just if they don't think NB is Top 100 then I don't respect their opinions anymore  I'm sure people will be devastated by that...

It's a good job Tom has raved about NB for years, so he's on my safe list.  

Interesting question....  Given NB has kind of come back into Top 100 fashion, as many of these courses do, can we attribute that to Tom building Renaissance just down the road?  Not that the physical building of Renaissance had anything to do with it but the fact all Tom's guys were staying in the area and falling in love with it again?  The timing of the last two rankings ('11,'13) could be more than just coincidence but I doubt it.  The golf course hasn't changed, so why the rise in the rankings?

Tom and the guys were telling all their friends and associates that respect their opinion, that then filters through to the rankings as more and more people talk about it?? Any evidence of this happening with other courses that come in and out of the Top 100?

[Mark Chaplin]

To be fair Ulrich played Deal on Sunday the day after a massive storm and Rye Wednesday. I'm at Sandwich tomorrow morning and Deal in the afto so it will be interesting to see how they stack up.

There are far too many good courses on the lock in list; West Sussex, Alwoodley, Machrihanish and Pennard are good but not stunning or great. Swinley Forest is in an "Aussie cricket team phase" and likely to be in the wilderness for a year or two.

[Sean_A]

Okay, Chappers speaks up.  Well, I can readily concede Pennard isn't great,but to say it isn't stunning really hangs you out to dry.  It is perhaps the most stunning course in GB&I!

Simon is in for N Berwick and I will take it Doak is too.

Thats 21 and I don't get my St Enodoc, but to but to balance that Worly gets a surprise inclusion.  Some day folks will cotton on to its charms and brilliance.  

Alwoodley
Ballybunion Old
Carnoustie
Ganton
Lahinch
Machrihanish
Muirfield
North Berwick  
Portmarnock
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Royal Worlington
Rye
Sunny Old
TOC
Turnberry

Any serious issues?  Now, what are the courses in GB&I Golf Magazine ranked as top 100?

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Brian,

I'm with you on Turnberry.  Very scenic and a very good course, but not quite top 100 world IMO...

[Sean_A]

Turnberry

Any serious issues?


Ciao

I'd have Turnberry off that list personally. I'm sure others will disagree.

I would too,  but as Doak stated, compromise is the reason lists always look a little weird to any individual.  The problem is though, how many people in the world can say they intimately know the 250 contenders for best in the world?  I will its an egg on that front.  All panelists are flying by the seat of their pants on many of the calls they make - it has to be this way.  So to a large degree lists need panelists for coverage.  Sure, we can always find some guys we "trust" more than others, but does anyone completely trust anybody else more than themselves?  There is simply no substitute for personal experience.

Okay - Jud speaks up - Turnberry is axed. Down to 20.

Alwoodley
Ballybunion Old
Carnoustie
Ganton
Lahinch
Machrihanish
Muirfield
North Berwick  
Portmarnock
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Royal Worlington
Rye
Sunny Old
TOC
Turnberry

Ciao

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