Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?

« **Reply #25 on:** August 04, 2003, 03:31:54 PM »

Tom Huckaby:

I always have trouble expressing my feelings on the Cashen because it is hands down my favorite place in the world, the land just taking on an almost religious quality for me. Part of me loves it when people trash the course because I love being out there all alone and would hate to see it ever get crowded.

But, you are right. The Cashen is an acquired taste. If one shows up on a 30 MPH wind day it just might prove too difficult and frustating. I remember being out walking one such day and running into an English fellow who absolutely hated the course telling me how he was a 4 handicap but couldn't break 90.

But, that aside, Matt Ward asks what about golf in Ireland is "overrated". For me that is pretty simple to answer: rushing around trying to "see" as many courses as possible. To appreciate what makes golf in Ireland special you have to slow down, spend more time at fewer locations and meet and play with the locals. You have to leave your golf architecture hat behind and spend more time on the 19th hole than all the others combined. Irish golf isn't the courses - splendid though they are. It's the people.

« **Reply #26 on:** August 04, 2003, 03:42:04 PM »

Right on Tim, all of it. I've done Ireland golf trips both ways - in tour group rushing around and taking more time - and the latter is definitely a better way to do it. Ireland golf is without a doubt more about the people than about the courses - right on.

However, some visitors have no choice... these days the best and only way to get on places like Ballybunion is through the services of a travel company / tour group operator, so one takes what one can get. Most people also want to see a lot of the courses in the little time they have... Oh, this is not the BEST way to do it, without a doubt, but I'd just also say that doing a whirlwind tour of Ireland can still be a hell of a lot of fun. The courses are that good also! So I'd caution saying that doing it that way is "over-rated".... It's the reality of how the majority of people CAN do Ireland golf, so let's not get too down on them.

As for the Cashen, well said also!

TH

« **Reply #27 on:** August 04, 2003, 03:55:18 PM »

Tom Huckaby:

I appreciate that many visitors to Ireland are on a once in a lifetime trip and do want to run around "seeing" as much as possible. Moreover, I've run into many such people and almost every time they are having a blast. In truth, there is alot worth seeing from just a golf architecture perspective - both in terms of existing courses and land for potential courses.

Still what takes Ireland over the top.....what makes it really special.....can only be found taking it slowly. It is quite possible to go over and play some wonderful courses but still really miss Irish golf.

« **Reply #28 on:** August 04, 2003, 04:00:36 PM »

Tim:

Agreed. Just do remember that the realities of life only allow certain amount of time to be spent over there, for most people. So I have nothing against the guy who has a week and plays 7 different courses. He'll have a lot to talk about when he gets home, and if that's what he's into, then he hasn't "missed" anything.

Of course the guy who spends nights at McLaughlin's in Sligo like I did, singing with the locals, for example, well he has life-long memories far transcending what pure golf will allow.

But hey, to me it's all good, that's why I just will never say the whirlwind tour guy missed anything, or had anything but a trip of his dreams.

TH

« **Reply #29 on:** August 04, 2003, 04:23:58 PM »

Matt,

forget Old Head, Doonbeg and K-Club and substitute Portstewart, Sligo and Louth.

If you don't already have teetimes at Ballybunion Old you could be in trouble - I'll bet Sept is already completely booked. There is a website associated with the Ballybunion hotels where a particular hotel "owns" a few teetimes and sells them to registering guests. Search on Google to find the site.

The rest of the courses should be accessible in Sept.

JC

« **Reply #30 on:** August 04, 2003, 07:58:35 PM »

Matt:

Just noticed your post, so here goes:

My favorites:

1. Heaven
2. Cypress Point
3. Royal County Down

4 - ? everything else

« **Reply #31 on:** August 04, 2003, 07:59:38 PM »

Matt:

As far as Ireland goes,

1. RCD
2. Ballybunion - Old
3. Royal Portrush
4. Portmarnock
5. Lahinch

Enjoy and slainche!!!!!

« **Reply #32 on:** August 06, 2003, 10:32:54 AM »

Just returned from Ireland and would suggest you not miss Doonbeg and Waterville. I also enjoyed The European Club as it showcases the talents of Pat Ruddy, a fellow who is the Pete Dye of the British Isles. Pat has missed the mark at a few holes there, but it is a work-in-progress — he both ownes it and designed it!

Of those you listed Portmarnock is among the "dogs" — lovingly, of course. This is a wonderful course, but ruined by the intrusion of a third nine holes which interrupt the routing and diminish vistas of gorse and tall grasses. Portmarnock is The Old Course without the town, ambiance, as much history, stinged routing, etc. Should you visit? Of course. But not at the expense of a few others.

« **Reply #33 on:** August 06, 2003, 10:35:18 AM »

Oh, also Tralee by Mr. Palmer's small design consultancy. Tralee has received several bad reviews, but I disagree. The greens could be better, but the site and its routing is truly great. I believe a fair review has not be given by many visitors — probably because it was not a favored designer — ?

« **Reply #34 on:** August 06, 2003, 11:53:35 AM »

"TEPaul:

I am shocked -- absolutely shocked -- to see that
you are now rating courses. RCD -- top five -- now I
K-N-O-W I must play it with that sort of recommendation."

Matt:

Sorry, I didn't mean to shock you. I only said it that way because I thought you might relate to it better. RCD and Port Rush are a couple of courses I would rate as three stars (***) and that's as far as I'd go. I'm not ready to do something like compare them or certainly not do something nuts like a hole by hole match play comparison!

But don't pass up RCD or Port Rush! If you come back and start claiming on here that a course like RCD should be discounted because it has a ton of really wild blind shots--I won't even mind--I'll just take it as another example of a misguided American golf rater!

« **Reply #35 on:** August 06, 2003, 11:58:52 AM »

Forrest,

I'd agree that the back nine at Tralee is very good and well routed. Did you feel that way about the front nine? I thought there were a number of rather uninteresting holes on that side, but it's been awhile and maybe I'm misremembering. Also, I thought the holes leading from and to the clubhouse--1,9,10 and 18--were pretty bland.

Also I'd appreciate your detailed comments on Waterville.

All The Best,

« **Reply #36 on:** August 06, 2003, 12:08:20 PM »

TEPaul:

From one "misguided" rater I say this: I enjoy the blind
shots -- for me the stuff I try to avoid is the places that max out on quirk -- oh, forgive me, let me paraphrase that
word -- luck, randomness -- you know --the opposite of skill.

For those passing forward there recommendations I am truly excited to play some of these well known gems. I am torn about some of the thoughts regarding Doonbeg, Old Head Waterville, Ballybunion / New and a few others that seem to register a good bit of commentary.

No doubt I'll be playing the holy grail of courses:

RCD
Portrush
Ballybunion / Old
Portmarnock
Lahinch (can't wait to weigh in on the famous "Dell" hole)

« **Reply #37 on:** August 06, 2003, 12:09:13 PM »

If you have the time, go to some courses--amost any courses--that are not on any of these lists. Not because they are "hidden gems." There probably are no undiscovered great golf courses left. But because they are where the Irish play golf, at reasonable rates, on an everyday basis. This is as much a part of enjoying the Irish golf experience as bagging someone's five or ten best.

There are several guides available on Amazon.com that have broad listings and descriptions of numerous courses that fit this description.

Full disclosure: I haven't been to Ireland. It's in the plan stages. But I spent three months in Scotland recently, and it would have been a much lesser experience without hitting some of the "lesser" courses. Ireland can't be much different in this regard.

« **Reply #38 on:** August 06, 2003, 02:51:10 PM »

Matt-
I'm heading over there in 3 weeks from today. We decided to focus on the southern half and hit the northern half on another trip (to limit travel). After talking with many people who have been there, we settled on these seven courses:

Portmarnock (Old)
K Club
Doonbeg
Lahinch
Old Head
Ballybunion (Old)
Waterville

Can't wait

...enjoy your trip as well.

« **Reply #39 on:** August 06, 2003, 03:46:21 PM »

Again...I would not miss (at least seeing) The Euorpean Club (a modern wonderm save the 18th hole!) and Tralee, a Palmer site that should not be missed.

« **Reply #40 on:** August 06, 2003, 06:14:56 PM »

Matt

Your 5 are probably the "right" ones, if you must limit it to 5 (I've played all but Portrush). If you want an "outlyer", and don't mind a bit of travel, play Portsalon in Donegal. It's "better" than Lahinch--and the two "neighbouring" courses at Ballyliffen (IMHO)--and the scenery getting there makes the Cliffs of Moher look like the Jersey Shore......

« **Reply #41 on:** August 06, 2003, 06:22:53 PM »

Rich --

Thanks much. Would not go to Ireland just to see another famed replica of the Jersey shore!

One is enough already.

Do you have any details on Portsalon -- yardage from the tips, etc, etc. Holes of note?

« **Reply #42 on:** August 06, 2003, 06:34:55 PM »

Matt

I did a post on Portsalon about 4 months ago (played it twice over the Easter weekend). Try searching for it. The (very) recently extended course plays about 7100, and you can (or could, in April) play from the tips without having to bend over in front of the Committee. Condition is (was?) a little rough, but the routing is superb and the design is a great mixture of old (the club is 100+ years young) and sensitive new. 18 sucks (unless you can carry the ball 280+--but you can, can't you?). It might remind you in places more of a muni than a CCFAD, but in others you'll think that Ballybunion is just a goat track in comparison. It's worth the detour--at least IMHO.

« **Reply #43 on:** August 06, 2003, 06:43:57 PM »

Rich:

What's the drive time from Portrush?

« **Reply #44 on:** August 06, 2003, 07:54:02 PM »

Matt/Rihc,

Here (I think) is the Portsalon thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=559;start=msg12368#msg12368

Your Humble Servant,

Doug

PS, At this rate Matt, you'll need to spend a good month in the Emerald Isle--not necessarily a bad thing!

« **Reply #45 on:** August 06, 2003, 08:04:40 PM »

Doug:

Thanks -- I did read the posts and I happened to see
the word I love to see

-- the maximizing of the
word "Q-U-I-R-K!!!!

If Portsalon is heavy on this then I can take a pass. I've got plenty of cross-fire holes here in Jersey without treking across the pond to see people walking like shooting gallery ducks in the line of fire!

There seems to be plenty of emphasis on the northwest being the last unspoiled bastion of true Irish golf. Is this so? And, if yes -- what course best eptimizes this without the dreaded QUIRK being the central focus of the architecture?

« **Reply #46 on:** August 06, 2003, 08:37:50 PM »

Royal County Down
Royal Portrush
Ballybunion old
Portmarnock
and the rest are far behind

« **Reply #47 on:** August 06, 2003, 09:05:42 PM »

Matt

County Sligo (Rosses Point) isn't quirky.

There was another thread by Rich detailing his visit to Portsalon since its redesign; it's undoubtably a better course now. When at Portrush, don't forget the Valley course if you have time; it's supposed to be a 50/50 choice between that and Portstewart. Valley is shorter and less spectacular but looks to have much more interesting green complexes.

The new redesign at Enniscrone by Donald Steel, looks very good.

I know you were considering a couple of days around London with Swinley and Sandwich as choices. They would be my picks too, for only two courses.

« **Reply #48 on:** August 07, 2003, 02:45:58 AM »

Matt

Portsalon is about 3 hours drive from Portrush, although I am told you can cut that if you rely on a couple of not so reliable car ferrys across Loch Foyle and Loch Swilly. I didn't notice the word "quirk" in my review on the link that Doug posted, and I'm apparently the only one who has actually seen or played the course since it's recent makeover/extension, which removed most of the "crossing" hole "problems", BTW. That being said, Portsalon does have its share of blind and semi blind shots, heaving fairways with surrounding dunes and greens that can throw what seems to be a fine shot into some unanticipated perdition. If you really are the meat and potatoes caricature which others sometimes try to portray, try Ballyliffen-Glashedy, and beg/prostrate yourself onto the back tees. You'll like it......

« **Reply #49 on:** August 07, 2003, 04:40:13 AM »

Anyone played the new course at Rossapenna? It's supposed to be fantastic.

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