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Ronald Montesano

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Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (seven holes posted)
« on: July 16, 2013, 10:09:39 PM »
Sam Morrow would call me a voyeur, except that he would say it in Texan and make it sound a lot more fun. Of late, I get my kicks from the photography as much as the golf. During Women's Open week, I toured The Bridge (thanks, Jeff), Sebonack, Southampton (thanks, Gene), Shinnecock (thanks, Robert), Fenway (thanks, Heath) and Sleepy Hollow (thanks, David) and hit precisely zero golf shots. I did shoot over 5000 images, though. I suspect that this affinity for the photography will help my game, as I cannot help but find the nuances of angles, run-ups and undulations through my lenses.

Fenway Golf Club is located in Scarsdale, NY. It is a Tillinghast, revitalized by Hanse about a dozen years ago. Here is a link to the club's history page: http://www.fenwaygolfclub.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=277974&ssid=151829&vnf=1

The club website also has a nice photo tour with some shots from high above, so check it out in conjunction with this dalliance:
http://www.fenwaygolfclub.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=277983&ssid=151838&vnf=1

His Ran-somness did a profile as well: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/fenway-golf-club/

The club has four decks of tees. In order that you don't have to return to the opening pitch (oops, wrong Fenway) post of the thread to see the scorecard, I'll list the four yardages with the hole number. Remember that I did not play the course, so I will present the course as an observer.

Hole #1: 285-285-263-250 yards
From my perspective, this is as friendly an opening hole as one can imagine. A bunt off the tee with any iron in your bag and you'll have an iron into the green. The half-cross bunker on the right sits about 245 off the tee. As you will see, the opening tee sits above the fairway, so even less club is needed. The putting surface runs from front to back, drops off and then the entrance road and practice range beyond. To the images...

Layout


Scorecard


Tee Ball (sort of)~I didn't want to bother the foursome on the tee and I couldn't sneak behind, so you get this shot, from about twenty yards in front and left of the tee.


Tee Ball zoomed in~Gentle fairway. A few undulations but nothing lunar. No hidden agenda.


Approaching the green site right~Half-cross bunker comes into play, and right green side bunker is also visible.


Approaching the green site left~Two green side bunkers sit below surface level here. If you can't hit a wedge onto this green, you deserve bogey.


View of the run-up~This view is from 65 yards short and left. You see the runway beyond the half-cross bunker. Not sure if you can bounce a ball on, but I would certainly try if I were playing.


Left green side bunker~You can see the depth of the bunker, the traditional grassy face and a bit of the surface undulations of the green.


Same side, from rear of bunker~Not much to add


From rear of green~Less sun, more subtlety. I got lazy and didn't adjust any of the images for quality, tone and other elements. I believe that you can still see the nuanced rolls of the green.


Right green side bunker~mirror image (almost) of the other side. You can see the drop from front of green to middle and back.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 10:20:45 PM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
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~Springfield
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Fenway Golf Club: A Dalliance
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2013, 12:27:48 AM »
Ron,

Fenway is a fabulous golf course.

When you think that AWT designed four (4) world class courses, practically next door to one another, it's quite an accomplishment.

From the same distance, I think Fenway may be the most difficult of the bunch.

Keith Grande

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: A Dalliance
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2013, 10:28:59 AM »
Nice pics...1st green reminds me a bit of the 1st hole at Bethpage Black.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 03:32:32 PM by Keith Grande »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Fenway Golf Club: A Dalliance
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2013, 02:06:21 PM »
Wonderful work there, Ron - thanks very much. That's as close to actually being there as I can possibly imagine!

Peter

Charlie Gallagher

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: A Dalliance
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2013, 02:26:24 PM »
     I had the great good luck to play this amazing parkland course five weeks ago. I was stunned by how stout a test it is and how much fun playing it turned out to be. The greens have an enormous amount of movement in them. I managed to under read break again and again. All manner of great golf holes can be found at Fenway. There are really long, tough,  par 4's like number 5 and memorable short ones such as 1 and the great 15th, with it's narrow and  fiendish tongue shaped green, offset to the line of play. Super par 3's too; I especially liked the short 4th hole with its dangerously sloped green. Fenway is an absolute blast to play. I'm certain this thread is going to bring lots of memories back regarding its superb qualities.
    As always, thanks for taking the time to post this expose. Tilliinghast knew just how to utilize this piece of land to bring out great golf and Hanse's team did a fine job restoring its luster.
 

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: A Dalliance
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2013, 03:57:59 PM »
Hole #2: 455-394-381-367 yards
And the honeymoon is over...uphill, lots of length, oob left, trees, sand, skyline green. She sure is purty, but she'll bite you! Number two at Fenway is a direct par four with a slanted fairway. The tee ball rises gently, then the approach takes greater wing to what might be a skyline green in another realm, without the trees. This was the toughest hole to shoot, as the foursome seemed to synchronize its movements perfectly with my own.

Tee ball from farthest back Left side of fairway seems to be the best spot from which to approach.


Tee ball from farther up Left side definitely opens up the hole.


Zoomed in toward right side fairway bunker Rough, trees and sand up the right.


From 275 yards out, left side of fairway  The daunting slope to the putting surface comes into full view, as the approach is played from well below the table top.



From 150 out, left side of fairway On a firm day, a running approach might just trundle its way up the front slope.



From 130 out, right rough Any shot in from the right side is fraught with peril. Too far left or right and the green side sand comes into play. Long is horrific and the rough up the right side is no bargain.



Left side of green, green side bunker Tough recovery.



Same bunker from rear of green This bunker has such a cool shape.



Right side of green, bunker Another fine example of a thin, protective hazard.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Mark McKeever

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2013, 07:10:49 PM »
Sad to see those fairway bunkers on 2 sitting out in the middle of the rough.  ???

MM
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Jud_T

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2013, 07:17:33 PM »
Ron,

Thanks for posting.  Haven't been there since before the renovation.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2013, 09:09:53 PM »
Ron, what do you think of those 'wavy' mowing lines along the right side of number 2?

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2013, 09:19:15 PM »
I would like to see a more expansive fairway on #2. On the one hand, since it is a long hole (made longer by the uphill approach), a bit more fairway width (especially on the side where righties tend to miss) would be beneficial to the close-miss, yet disastrous to the wider miss. Disastrous? Why disastrous? If the fairway were mowed up to the right-side fairway bunkers, one could flirt with a great angle in at a left pin, yet also flirt with a recovery from sand.

Count me as "not a fan" of the right-side mowing pattern as is.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

V. Kmetz

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2013, 10:30:17 PM »
I'm told I have to see the recent renovation work specifically on these holes: 7-12, and #14; but I was never a fan of this middle third, and that topmost 14th hole. It all plays sidehill, uphill or both...severely so.  In the case of 7 and 10, it's an aerial big hit down to always murky splashy flats and the approaches are not thrilling.

We say at Winged Foot (and I'm sure its said in other circles) that "Tillie hates a hook" and these middle holes are a thesis on that, (if not all of Fenway)

1-6 are excellent, varied, different, one of the best opening stretches I've ever played or observed play upon.

But 7 and 10 are nearly the same hole, 8 and 12 are nearly the same hole and all four are 15-20 degree dog leg lefts...9 is not some joy to play, it's "miss the approach and you're dead." 11 is a plain bad hole with little fun and disaster mere yards from blind ground. What's the good of having a wavy challenging green site that you can't see, so as not to advantage the contours.

#13 can be a wonderful hole, if you're not fatigued from climbing that same hill again. 

#14 is a bowling alley, where again, the best features of what you're playing to - in terms of green approach are largely hidden.

With #15, the course resumes the pitch of the first six (though not quite as fine) and this continues through an interesting 18th.

I'm also not a huge fan of this routing...I wish he could've found a better par 3 than 11 somewhere else (perhaps let 13 go furtehr towards 11 as a par 5...?) because not only is 11 a bummer but consider what you've played since #7...

7 - 380 - 4
8 - 355 - 4
9 - 400 - 4
10 -440 - 4
11 -180 - 3
12 -450 - 4
13 -410- 4

This is blue tees..granted but it's mostly big swings, and scrawling along the slope of large hill.  i'm usually fatigued, tired and somewhat disinterested by the time 12 rolls around.

I agree with Pat that it could very well be the toughest of the four neighborhood courses; but its an "unfriendly" tough in my mind.

I'll have to visit to check out what may have been done to improve this stretch of lesser holes in the middle.

cheers

vk

"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Terry Lavin

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2013, 10:39:24 PM »
I covet this Fenway. Not the other, mind you!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2013, 10:39:35 PM »
Well, THANKS, Vin...might as well just end my dalliance right now, then, since you've spoken (I'm playing, player.)

Such passion, SUCH PASSION! Hopefully the remainder of the dalliance will serve some purpose for vk.

I don't recall this hole being identical to that hole, but the camera never lies. Stay tuned.

Tilly hates a hook? Not based on what I've seen at Bethpage and even Fenway. A sweeping, uncontrollable hook is hated by every architect, but a tuned draw is welcomed everywhere.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2013, 12:56:03 AM »
VK,

Fenway's one of the most challenging 6,700 yard courses you could play.

It's a terrific golf course.

As to the nit picking, it's moronic.

What the observer's don't understand is the angle the photos are taken from and how that distorts reality and doesn't portray the building to the immediate right, and the need to approach the sloped green from the left side of the fairway.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2013, 10:03:56 AM »
I guess some courses are exempt from having a discussion around mowing lines, but not others.   ::)

MM
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2013, 10:23:08 AM »
Dalliance, we get it, you watch Wilfred.

I'm happy for you finding a new passion.  Have you considered emulating the great photographers in golf and taking fewer better pictures? I recently had a photographer follow my group, without permission, and he had a small step ladder with him where he took his time to find one spot and take a series from there.  I'm sure they turned out great.

It goes without saying that he bugged the living hell out of me.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2013, 11:13:54 AM »
Dalliance, we get it, you watch Wilfred.

NO CLUE WHAT THIS MEANS.

I'm happy for you finding a new passion.  Have you considered emulating the great photographers in golf and taking fewer better pictures? I recently had a photographer follow my group, without permission, and he had a small step ladder with him where he took his time to find one spot and take a series from there.  I'm sure they turned out great.

NO, I HAVEN'T. IF I WERE TO DO SUCH A THING, MORE THREADS LIKE THIS WOULD BEGIN: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56298.0.html.

It goes without saying that he bugged the living hell out of me.

SOME DO THAT WITHOUT EVEN SNIFFING YOU OUT.

Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2013, 12:16:04 PM »


I guess some courses are exempt from having a discussion around mowing lines, but not others.   ::)

Mark, don't you mean mowing "line"

If you'll look closer at some of the photos of # 2, you'll see the clubhouse just to the right of that bunker.

While I don't like buffers of rough between fairways and bunkers/hazards, mitigating circumstances sometimes influence those decisions.

The course itself is so spectacular, that focusing on "A" 50 yard stretch of a mowing line, is petty at best.

The other thing to realize is that carts can't go to the right of that bunker, hence that "bulge" serves carts going up the right side.

You'll also notice in the photos, how the fairway bows out to the left, giving the golfer more than ample room off the tee.

If anything, rather than complain about the bulge, complain about the entire wavey right side mowing pattern












MM
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 12:20:45 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

corey miller

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2013, 03:45:08 PM »


Fenway is a wonderful course....More tree work is needed, especially in the 7-14 area that VK does not like. 

Would love to not have this thread get sidetracked and for it to continue.  Mowing lines are fair game, perhaps too early to comment but the left side of #1 also has this wavy thing going on.  I suspect it may have something to do with the tree trip line (does not make it right). 

These waves, if visible on other holes are a visual distraction on a great course and one I suspect Gil would not approve of.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (two holes stationed)
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2013, 03:50:26 PM »
Hole #3: 520-510-493-479 yards
In its day, probably a heck of a strong, three-shot hole. Today, with the downhill tee ball and other advances, a nice half-par hole. As you stand on the tee deck, you notice the bit of sand up the right side. As you descend the hill toward your tee shot, you might have reason to forget about it, until you prepare to strike your second shot. At that juncture, you see how narrow the fairway that abuts the sand is. For a moment, you consider flooring it and going straight at the green. Why not? You live this life once, after all.

Tee ball from farthest back If you plan to lay up, a shot up the left gives you a straight second toward the neck. If you plan to go at the green, either side will do.



Tee ball zoomed in Could they extend the mowing lines to the bunkers on both sides? Indeed, they could.



Zoomed in a bit more The enormous slope of the putting surface, from right to left, comes into view. The fellow in the photo is playing number five, a parallel hole.



Zoomed in more from tee We see the width of the fairway lead up to the major bunker field. In truth, one might never threaten that sand, as a layup to 140 yards out, short of the sand, is practical.



Final zoom from tee Beyond the sand field on the right, a second fairway awaits, before the hill that ascends the slope toward the mesa. On this hole, I would go against my normally-conservative nature and take a run at the green in two.



From about 240 out, right rough This vantage point is behind the closest right-side fairway bunker. From here, a layup left of sand farm is prudent and manageable, assuming you can get the club on the ball.



Zoomed in to about 140 out, right rough Our first close-up of the bunker field. This is similar to a Tilly Great Hazard, save for the fact that it is adjacent to the fairway, not across it.



Moving forward through the sand mines No one has any business being over here. Get back to the left as quickly as you may.



Looking back toward the tee from the last bunker.



About 80 yards out We have traversed the 60 yards of sand up the right side and now see the uniquely-shaped green site, with its raised right side and total elevation. Briar patches are close behind, so gauge your yardage well.



Fronting bunkers on the right This would be a terrific bail-out area for a wide-right blast at the green, so the placement of sand pits there should keep golfers honest or at least debating their odds of survival.



A blind pitch uphill is what anyone will get from short of the green. Here we are looking over the two bunkers seen in the previous image.



A backward glance from the right side of the green The clubhouse and tee in the distance, the bunker farm now on our left, we are kings of all we survey.



Zoomed in, green eliminated Same view as image #13, zoomed in to better present fairway and sand park.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (three holes parked)
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2013, 03:55:16 PM »
Three is a hole I am excited to see!  Do you know if the "sand mines" were ever a forced carry/HHA? 

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (three holes parked)
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2013, 05:16:28 PM »
M & M,

I don't, but it would be a better hole in my opinion if that portion of the fairway were a great hazard. However, I don't think that Fenway necessarily fits the modus of a rough-and-tumble club. It is an attractive, parkland course and a great hazard might be too invigorating for the membership.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (three holes parked)
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2013, 05:37:16 PM »
Either way, its a great looking hole and I love the look of the green.  It almost reminds me of the eclectic bunkering at Huntington in a weird way.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (three holes parked)
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2013, 09:38:18 PM »
Ron & Mark,

The third green is a very difficult green, with it's contours and slope.

And, it's relatively narrow.

Corey, you're right, more trees need to go.

If you'll look carefully, you'll see that the trees that need to go are the ones most recently planted, the smaller set.

Sometimes it's difficult to undo something that was recently introduced.
But, many, many more trees need to be removed.

Like many AWT courses, especially those with limited ranges, the 1st hole tends to be benign.
So it is with Fenway, where # 1 is drivable.

But, after # 1, look out and hold on to you hat.

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Fenway Golf Club: a dalliance (three holes parked)
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2013, 10:15:36 PM »
Few things to note:

1.  This hole is great opener for a long hitter.  The green is drivable (even with a 3-wood) but demands a tough up-and-down if you miss the green, and depending on the pin location, a likely tough two putt.  One must be tactical in where to place the tee shot to prepare for a shot into this very tricky green.

2.  Ron, you must have missed the back tee on this hole - it was behind the road, partially obstructed by the fescue mound.  This hole is tough especially with its length and the out of bounds on the left.  Many will bail out to the right rough leaving a tough shot into this sloping green.

3.  The back tee is much further back and from a different angle than what Ron was showing.  This hole can be a very strong par 5, as even a good drive leaves a wood, hybrid or long iron into this shallow and sloping green.  Even the wedge shots into the green can be difficult to judge.
It reminded me of an eden hole from about 150 in, with the green being severly sloped back to front, a spine running down the middle separating the right and left tiers, and a strath-like bunker in the front.

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