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James:I understand that subtlety might "hide" the merits of the course. But I've also studied not just Sean's thread, but two others presented here on GCA on R W&NM, and to me they all show the same thing -- a course of some interest, with some very good greens, on a non-descript piece of land (a "pleasant meadow" ). Compare the R W&NM threads to this one on Wild Horse, in Nebraska, also on a relatively flat piece of land, but one where I think the architectural merits really shine through, in a way that I just can't see (yet? ) in R W&NM.http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48807.0.html(My questioning of R W&NM isn't that it's necessarily a poor course; it strikes me as a pretty good one. But the standards for evaluating it, in my mind, are higher, given the reputation it carries.)
James:Re. #7 -- I just don't see how that hollow is emblematic of greatness in golf course design/architecture on a hole of 160-some yards, regardless of what's there. My own bias toward course presentation would leave it the way it is, but I don't get what the big deal is with this feature. In front of a 400-some yard par 4 -- sure. But on a par 3 where nearly everyone will be playing it with an aerial shot?
I can assure everyone I didn't get Royal Worlington mixed up with Woodhall Spa.For me, the course that I'm most reminded of is Merion ... in that the layout fits the property so well. Both properties are fairly small and non-descript (by comparison with top 100 contenders) and yet they get every bit they can out of every feature. That, to me, is the epitome of great design and that, plus a great set of greens, is why it got the 9. I'm sure it doesn't compare in most people's eyes to the other 9's on my list, but that's a clue that I think you should study harder.
Sean,Though the site is compact (maybe 42 acres), I didn't think of it as a shooting gallery at all. With the exception of 4 & 6 running parallel to each other and maybe someone trying to drive the greens on 3 or 9, the risk of getting hit is really on approach shots to greens. This means a chance to get a warning shouted at you and, hopefully, the person hitting the shot has a bit more control anyway. You wouldn't want to be out there when there were beginners playing every hole, but otherwise I think you would be fine, even on a busy day. I agree that the waiting on shots could be a hassle.
Two nines on the Sacred Nine or a round at Woodhall SpaRW&N by a considerable margin, particulally with a clubhouse stop after 9 In fact, there were more unique and different holes in 9 at RW&N...... than in 18 at Woodhall Spa, which is indeed a very pretty spot, but is overwhelmingly repetitive from 11-17
Quote from: Carson Pilcher on June 10, 2013, 12:59:25 PMIt made #1 outside the U.S.http://golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2013-06/ranking-best-short-courses I see the Valliere is in there and behind Musselburgh? I heard Musselburgh was average at very best It would be interesting to see how the Valliere would hold up against Royal Worlington - I have heard great things about the place.
It made #1 outside the U.S.http://golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2013-06/ranking-best-short-courses
Quote from: B_Sheehy on June 10, 2013, 01:01:55 PMQuote from: Carson Pilcher on June 10, 2013, 12:59:25 PMIt made #1 outside the U.S.http://golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2013-06/ranking-best-short-courses I see the Valliere is in there and behind Musselburgh? I heard Musselburgh was average at very best It would be interesting to see how the Valliere would hold up against Royal Worlington - I have heard great things about the place.I too would very much like to see the Valliere. I think what you heard about Musselburgh is a bit harsh. There are some very good holes on the course - well worth seeing after a nearby game at Muirfield or NB considering the price. #s 1, 2, 4, 5 & 9 are all good holes. Geez, what do people expect when the fee is under £15 quid? Love it or hate it, like Westward Ho!, all folks should stop in for game.Ciao
Quote from: SArble on June 13, 2013, 02:09:21 AMI think you weigh the experience/ambience/house (all one ball of wax) part much more than I do and thats fine because thats what is important to you. If it happens to be cheap as well bobs yer uncle. I definitely give big points to a place with a nice house when talking about my favourite places to play - I hope I can remove that from the equation when evaluating the golf course. As for ambience: well that's a tricky one as it's so intrinsic to the playing experience as to virtually be part of the golf course - if not necessarily something that can be designed. I agree about the lack of discrepancy between good and great too - 100%. In fact I pretty much agree with all of what you say - but if I am asked my objective opinion on a course / to compare one course to another, then how much I paid is never gonna be a factor. But it will definitely come into the equation when considering how often I would go back.
I think you weigh the experience/ambience/house (all one ball of wax) part much more than I do and thats fine because thats what is important to you. If it happens to be cheap as well bobs yer uncle.
Quote from: Jon Wiggett on June 13, 2013, 12:42:08 AMSean,many people nowadays do not understand the concept of value for money. Old Mussleburgh is well worth the effort to play and great value for money.JonJon - come on - we all love a bargain, but money should not come into the equation when evaluating the best 9 holers in the world - I also don't know how you could come out with such a massive gneralisation about whether or not or how people evaluate value for money especially given current economic conditions.Musselburgh beat out the Valliere in that magazine's rankings. Based on accounts I have heard of both places, I would be gobsmacked if that ended up being accurate - I don't give it a damn how much it costs to play both. And when arguing whether or not a course is any good, saying: "what do you expect for £x" doesn't add much value to the discussion in my opinion (no offence Sean!). Just give me a feel for its quality relative to others I've played and I'll make my own conclusions about value.
Sean,many people nowadays do not understand the concept of value for money. Old Mussleburgh is well worth the effort to play and great value for money.Jon