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John Mayhugh

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Re: THE SACRED 9
« Reply #75 on: April 26, 2015, 09:38:26 AM »
The standards for Worly are different -- no one here that I've seen (including myself) has claimed that the course isn't good. But it's viewed as great -- perhaps the best 9-hole course in the world, and a Doak 9 (lacking a 10 only because it's 9 holes, as Tom himself has said). Subtle or not (and I'm a huge fan of subtle, and a known critic of the too-bold and over-the-top design -- see my comments on Wild Horse, Flossmoor, Blackwolf Run River, and a few others), I see little at Worly that distinguishes it from any number of other 9-hole courses I regularly play.

Phil,
How did you manage to determine that the standards for Mildenhall are different? 

You haven't played the course.  You are judging it based on photos, and that is hard to do with more subtle features.  Why, exactly, do you think those of us who have actually played the course are incapable of assessing its merits and honestly rating it?  Where does our supposed bias come from?
 


Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE SACRED 9
« Reply #76 on: April 26, 2015, 12:32:44 PM »
The standards for Worly are different -- no one here that I've seen (including myself) has claimed that the course isn't good. But it's viewed as great -- perhaps the best 9-hole course in the world, and a Doak 9 (lacking a 10 only because it's 9 holes, as Tom himself has said). Subtle or not (and I'm a huge fan of subtle, and a known critic of the too-bold and over-the-top design -- see my comments on Wild Horse, Flossmoor, Blackwolf Run River, and a few others), I see little at Worly that distinguishes it from any number of other 9-hole courses I regularly play.

Phil,
How did you manage to determine that the standards for Mildenhall are different?  

You haven't played the course.  You are judging it based on photos, and that is hard to do with more subtle features.  Why, exactly, do you think those of us who have actually played the course are incapable of assessing its merits and honestly rating it?  Where does our supposed bias come from?
 



John:

This entire website is set up to judge courses based on photos. ;)

Sean questioned why folks (presumably on this thread...) weren't assessing the course as good. My comments on this thread have readily acknowledged what appears -- from photos -- to be a good course, perhaps even very good.

But Doak gave this thing a 9 -- for a 9-hole course, that's as high of a rating as he'll give (and I am generally a fan of Tom's assessments of courses, both in the Confidential Guide and here on GCA; he and I are of similar views on Milwaukee CC, to cite one example -- admittedly he knows that course better than I as Renaissance has done work there). There are other writings out there that have labeled Worly as perhaps the best 9-hole course in the world, and generally the best in GB&I.

That you and Sean view it differently than me -- in terms of its worthiness of high praise -- shouldn't come under criticism; we're all here for the exchange of frank commentary on golf courses. Your (yours and Sean's) views certainly carry greater weight than mine, since you've both played it, but I'm fine with that. If we limited all commentary on this site to things only seen or played in person, the site would be poorer for it. I think you and Sean are perfectly capable of assessing its merits; I just don't see why it should come in for such high praise.

My aim in commenting on it -- based solely on photos -- is partly to prompt better arguments from those who have played it on its merits. So far, I've read little of that, other than Sean's view of it as a 7 (down from Doak's 9), and commentators saying, essentially, you have to see it to appreciate it (which, few people seem to say about a course like, e.g., NGLA, a course full of subtlety -- according to those who have played it -- yet also one whose architectural bonafides are readily apparent to anyone who's viewed photos and writings of its extensively, as I have.)

And it's not like I'm out there, all alone, in thinking this course might be over-rated. Note the commentary on this thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48309.0.html and read Finegan's take on the course in All Courses Great and Small -- those folks have played the course, and their views are more in line with mine than those of you and Sean.


 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 01:02:35 PM by Phil McDade »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE SACRED 9
« Reply #77 on: April 26, 2015, 07:14:21 PM »
Phil

You seem to use pix a bit different to how I do...and thats okay.  I use pix to help decide if I may want to visit a course some day...not to determine if a course is great or a 7 or 9.  When I look at pix of Worly I am very intrigued...thats why I played it.  I have no beef if the pix don't do anything for you, but I do find it odd that guys who look at tons of pix can't figure out that Worly is an interesting looking course.  I see plenty in the pix to get a very good idea of what exists...though pix never capture anything like all of the story...but then neither does a game or 5.  

You bring up Finegan again...all I can say is he was dead wrong, drunk, didn't bother with windows or the sun was in his eyes.  Bottom line, he missed the boat.  Though to be fair...he didn't offer a Doak score...just negative comments.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 07:18:11 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Winterfield & Alnmouth

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE SACRED 9
« Reply #78 on: April 26, 2015, 09:22:26 PM »
My aim in commenting on it -- based solely on photos -- is partly to prompt better arguments from those who have played it on its merits. So far, I've read little of that, other than Sean's view of it as a 7 (down from Doak's 9), and commentators saying, essentially, you have to see it to appreciate it (which, few people seem to say about a course like, e.g., NGLA, a course full of subtlety -- according to those who have played it -- yet also one whose architectural bonafides are readily apparent to anyone who's viewed photos and writings of its extensively, as I have.)

I'm starting to think you're just messing with us.

NGLA's greatness is far easier for people who have not played the course to recognize because it is incredibly more photogenic.  It's one of the best looking, most exciting courses I've seen in photos or person.  Sure, there's plenty of subtlety there, but it also makes a major impression either way.  It's utterly unlike Royal Worlington & Newmarket in that regard.

As Sean said, there's plenty interesting in the photos of Mildenhall (at least to me), but you either can't or won't see this.  That's ok - you can judge things however you like. It just seems odd for you to suggest that people who are big fans of the course (Doak, Ran, Sean, to name three) are somehow biased - the standards for Worly are different. - or incapable of properly assessing this course based on their tastes. 

It's easy to understand why people might play Mildenhall and come away unimpressed.  Maybe they like a bolder course.  To each his own.  You're the only person I've ever seen that suggests that being unphotogenic might be a reason to make the course undeserving of a Doak 9, though.  I don't get that.

 


Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE SACRED 9
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2015, 11:44:04 AM »

You bring up Finegan again...all I can say is he was dead wrong, drunk, didn't bother with windows or the sun was in his eyes.  Bottom line, he missed the boat.  Though to be fair...he didn't offer a Doak score...just negative comments.

Ciao

Sean:

It's good to see you maintaining the high standards of this discussion board, referring to the recently deceased Mr. Finegan as "drunk" or blinded by "the sun...in his eyes." Also good to see you didn't speculate, as you have in the past, that his judgement of the course was directly a result of scoring poorly on the course -- something he doesn't do anywhere else in any of his other books. But just as I haven't played Worly, perhaps you haven't bothered to read his books before passing judgement on his opinions of courses. Given that you've just speculated that one of the sport's most esteemed writers was inebriated while playing it, I wouldn't be surprised if you hadn't....

You think highly of the course; I think it looks over-rated. We can disagree about that without you resorting to this kind of gutter-like debate. At least defend your views by assessing its architecture, rather than besmirching others who have disagreed with you.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE SACRED 9
« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2015, 11:56:02 AM »
Lighten up Phil...ever hear of a joke...which I thought would have been obvious.  Just goes to show that one needs to be very careful about what is written on the web.  Its a shame life is this way, but there you have it. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Winterfield & Alnmouth

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE SACRED 9
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2015, 05:58:32 PM »
I've not yet played Mildenhall and I have to agree that the photos on this and other threads don't inspire me to make the journey in the way that photos of many other courses do.

However, I have enough faith in the opinions of the likes of Messrs Arble, Rowlinson, Doak, and Dickinson to know that I need to see this place.

Sometimes pictures don't tell the full story...
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 06:01:24 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suffolk Sojourn: Sold on THE SACRED 9 New
« Reply #82 on: July 11, 2024, 05:22:08 PM »
After a long lay off I made a return trip to the Sacred 9. My oh my what a place. I am more impressed now than ever. If there is any such thing as perfection, Mildenhall just may be it. Please see the updated tour.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55859.0.html

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 12, 2024, 03:45:14 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Winterfield & Alnmouth

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suffolk Sojourn: Sold on THE SACRED 9
« Reply #83 on: July 12, 2024, 07:58:44 AM »
Thanks for the update. I have to get back there. Not sure what more anyone needs for a game.

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suffolk Sojourn: Sold on THE SACRED 9
« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2024, 11:58:55 AM »
I would love to be mamber and play as many days as possible at TS9.My trip four years ago was a highlight and eveything: the course, pro shop , food, clubhouse is perfectly and exquisitly scaled. It is as if you are sitting comfortably with an old friend who knows the nuances of one's persoanlity and tastes and delivers choice morsels in elegant and measured manner.Brute strength does not pay dividends only appreciation and attention are rewarded
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Suffolk Sojourn: Sold on THE SACRED 9
« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2024, 03:09:57 PM »
Wardo


That's beautifully put. The place just exudes a certain charm and ambience. No doubt the scale of the place helps but has there ever been so much good design packed into nine holes without being blingy ? Long may it remain off the beaten track and ignored by the Perry Golf bus tours.


Niall 

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