[Mike_Young]

I realize that trade association of all types are having difficulties in the present economy and are doing their best to operate at pre 2008 standards.  But the ones I am most familiar with are golf related.  And it's pretty easy to realize that the last 25 years were not the norm for golf and if any of us try to continue to function as if they were, then we are crazy.
Now, having said this: I am sure State Golf Associations are having their own issues and expect to maintain the same revenues as before but that ain't gonna happen.  So...if you were a member club and a state golf association decided to accept sponsorships from businesses such as RTJ Trail and Myrtle Beach Golf in surrounding states and then promote these areas for play, what would you do?  Makes no sense to me....

[Tim Martin]

Mike- State Golf Associations need to promote golf in their respective states and their member clubs. It would seem contradictory to their mission statement to promote courses in other neighbor states regardless of how much revenue would/could be realized. They need to get creative or do more with less as that dog won't hunt.

[David_Tepper]

"if you were a member club and a state golf association decided to accept sponsorships from businesses such as RTJ Trail and Myrtle Beach Golf in surrounding states and then promote these areas for play, what would you do?  Makes no sense to me...."

I don't see this as being a problem at all. I am a member of the Northern California Golf Association, which I think is pretty well run. The magazine that is sent to members 4 times a year always had advertising for several golf vacation destinations outside of NorCal. In addition, there are frequently articles on golf travel.

Just today, I got an email from the NCGA promoting golf travel packages in Central Oregon. NCGA members get a discount off the rates quoted.

I fail to see why a member club would have a problem with any of the above.The fact is people travel to play golf.   

[Mike_Young]

"if you were a member club and a state golf association decided to accept sponsorships from businesses such as RTJ Trail and Myrtle Beach Golf in surrounding states and then promote these areas for play, what would you do?  Makes no sense to me...."

I don't see this as being a problem at all. I am a member of the Northern California Golf Association, which I think is pretty well run. The magazine that is sent to members 4 times a year always had advertising for several golf vacation destinations outside of NorCal. In addition, there are frequently articles on golf travel.

Just today, I got an email from the NCGA promoting golf travel packages in Central Oregon. NCGA members get a discount off the rates quoted.

I fail to see why a member club would have a problem with any of the above.The fact is people travel to play golf.   

When the RTJ trail is 15 miles from your course you would think differently...

[Greg Tallman]

Disagree Mike.

The association is there to organize, administrate, promote and operate various aspects of the game of golf to the people of the state.

They are not there to market your property. That is your job.

Your thinking is a bit Pat Robertsonesque.

[Mike_Young]

Disagree Mike.

The association is there to organize, administrate, promote and operate various aspects of the game of golf to the people of the state.

They are not there to market your property. That is your job.

Your thinking is a bit Pat Robertsonesque.

Greg,
I disagree.  They ask almost 400 courses to pay them an annual fee.  True, I should do my own promotions..agree 100%...and so should the rest of the member courses  BUT the state assoc should remain neutral on the matter of where to play and should support us not outside the state entities.

[BCrosby]

"They are not there to market your property."

Obviously. But neither should they use their standing among Georgia golfers to do harm to Georgia golf operations.

Bob

[Rick Shefchik]

Location plays a big part in this. The Minnesota Golf Association magazine runs travel stories in its fall edition, and ads for winter destinations, but there's no golf here between December and March. I think the local courses are probably happy to see the game being promoted in the offseason.

[Greg Tallman]

Disagree Mike.

The association is there to organize, administrate, promote and operate various aspects of the game of golf to the people of the state.

They are not there to market your property. That is your job.

Your thinking is a bit Pat Robertsonesque.

Greg,
I disagree.  They ask almost 400 courses to pay them an annual fee.  True, I should do my own promotions..agree 100%...and so should the rest of the member courses  BUT the state assoc should remain neutral on the matter of where to play and should support us not outside the state entities.

Mike, I certainly understand your position but I simply do not agree with it.

What do you pay to the Assoc and what are you supposed to receive in return? Is this a follow up to an ealrier thread along the same lines?

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike,

I got a call recently from someone representing the Georgia State Golf Association's official magazine. He was wanting to know if I could supply him with a list of advertising contacts at South Carolina golf properties... which I couldn't, by the way! He explained they have a plan of attack to target neighboring states for advertising revenue.

We have exactly the opposite approach in South Carolina. We do not accept advertising in our magazine from golf resorts or courses located in states adjacent to South Carolina. Why? Because we are trying hard to work with our members to keep the business in state. Now, if Bandon Dunes wanted to advertise in our magazine I'm sure we would accept it, but not Reynolds Plantation.

I'm not saying we are right and Georgia is wrong... we just have different priorities.

[RJ_Daley]

I understand the issue more from what Rick Shefchik said, where the advertising revenue for destination golf for the snow birds is helpful to the bottom line of the State association getting through the winter months. 

Also, I'd ask if a concept isn't in play, that promoting golf where ever, even out of State is additive to the industry and participation by all customers?  I certainly get where Mike W and Mike Y are coming from, but aren't serious golfers in year around golf States going to seek other travel destinations anyway?  What in-state golfer, whether a club member or just frequent player isn't going to seek out-of-state play?  So, why not get a buck of revenue for away venue promotion and advertising.  I think those frequent golfer readers are going to go someplace else no matter, and when they do, that money is going to go out of state anyway.  IMHO. 

[Michael Whitaker]

RJ - we take the position that there is a finite golf travel budget available each year within the South Carolina golfing population and we do our best to help our members get the lion's share of that budget. Yes, South Carolinians travel outside the state for golf, but I don't think it is our place to encourage them to do so. The little benefit we might derive from selling a few ads to neighboring resorts would not offset any possible ill will that might result. If a South Carolinian is trying to choose between Pinehurst and Kiawah for their golf buddy trip we want them to choose Kiawah. Obviously, they will sometimes choose Pinehurst, but not because the SC Golf Association provided the motivation to do so.

[Mike_Young]

Disagree Mike.

The association is there to organize, administrate, promote and operate various aspects of the game of golf to the people of the state.

They are not there to market your property. That is your job.

Your thinking is a bit Pat Robertsonesque.

Greg,
I disagree.  They ask almost 400 courses to pay them an annual fee.  True, I should do my own promotions..agree 100%...and so should the rest of the member courses  BUT the state assoc should remain neutral on the matter of where to play and should support us not outside the state entities.

Mike, I certainly understand your position but I simply do not agree with it.

What do you pay to the Assoc and what are you supposed to receive in return? Is this a follow up to an ealrier thread along the same lines?

Greg,

I want to support my state golf assoc.and I do as do most clubs I think.  Their mission is this:
The mission of the Georgia State Golf Association is to promote and preserve the traditions and integrity of golf in Georgia and to enhance its enjoyment. With that being said I can completely understand courses from other areas or states placing ads and promotions.  BUT I don't think they have any business accepting regional golf destinations as "partners" or "sponsors" like the USGA accepted Rolex or Lexus or Amex. That is what has happened and what I am discussing.  I'm not concerned with monthly ads.   I don't think you would see an association of auto dealers condoning their association partnering with auto dealers in neighboring states. JMO...

As for what we pay.  I think we pay $1250 per year to be a member club and that includes 50 handicap fees of $25 per golfer.  Now here is my dilemma.  The larger courses will have the same dues structure and will have 500 people sign up for handicaps at a fee of probably $50 so they actually make money on being a member.  Yet the smaller clubs around the stae that may not be private clubs have a tough time in many cases sellng 50 handicap members.  The service also includes a course rating etc every few years.   

[Greg Tallman]

I have a better one for you. WVGA has held the West Virginia Open Championship outside the state on multiple occasions.

[Mike_Young]

I have a better one for you. WVGA has held the West Virginia Open Championship outside the state on multiple occasions.

Are you from West Virginia?
A fellow that used to work with me actually won the WV Open a couple of times I think.  And if not mistaken I think two holes of fincastle are in Virginia or Tenn.

[Ben Sims]

Gents, I'm going to use a hypothetical example.  Let's say I'm a redneck golfer living in Centralhatchee, Georgia.  I hunt, fish, and play a little golf.  I watch the Bulldogs in the fall and own several firearms.  I have never used the words "President" and "Obama" in the same sentence.  I love Alan Jackson.

I play my golf in LaGrange at The Fields.  I like it because it is inexpensive, and the greens roll good.  I've never been to Golfclubatlas.com and have no idea that golf architect is actually a career.  I pay a small fee and me and my friends get to keep a handicap at The Fields.  Every month. I get a magazine that goes straight next to my toilet.  In it, I see these airbrushed photos of green green grass, brown pine needles, and mirror smooth water at a place called Grand National.  "Well hell, that's just over in Opelika! And they got a deal goin'!"  Me and the boys make our twice monthly tee time on the RTJ at Grand National.

Now imagine I'm the pro shop guy at The Fields.  I notice we're missing a few regulars.  The next week, they show up and I ask where they've been.  They say they heard about this good deal over in Opelika.  I do a little digging.  Find out that they heard about it in the GSGA magazine.  So in effect, an association that I pay dues to ran an ad that caused me to lose business! 

That's pretty jacked up if you ask me. 

[jeffwarne]

Gents, I'm going to use a hypothetical example.  Let's say I'm a redneck golfer living in Centralhatchee, Georgia.  I hunt, fish, and play a little golf.  I watch the Bulldogs in the fall and own several firearms.  I have never used the words "President" and "Obama" in the same sentence.  I love Alan Jackson.

I play my golf in LaGrange at The Fields.  I like it because it is inexpensive, and the greens roll good.  I've never been to Golfclubatlas.com and have no idea that golf architect is actually a career.  I pay a small fee and me and my friends get to keep a handicap at The Fields.  Every month. I get a magazine that goes straight next to my toilet.  In it, I see these airbrushed photos of green green grass, brown pine needles, and mirror smooth water at a place called Grand National.  "Well hell, that's just over in Opelika! And they got a deal goin'!"  Me and the boys make our twice monthly tee time on the RTJ at Grand National.

Now imagine I'm the pro shop guy at The Fields.  I notice we're missing a few regulars.  The next week, they show up and I ask where they've been.  They say they heard about this good deal over in Opelika.  I do a little digging.  Find out that they heard about it in the GSGA magazine.  So in effect, an association that I pay dues to ran an ad that caused me to lose business! 

That's pretty jacked up if you ask me. 

or as they say outside Cenralhatchee, a conflict of interest

[mike_beene]

I wouldn't send them any more momey

[Greg Tallman]

I have a better one for you. WVGA has held the West Virginia Open Championship outside the state on multiple occasions.

Are you from West Virginia?
A fellow that used to work with me actually won the WV Open a couple of times I think.  And if not mistaken I think two holes of fincastle are in Virginia or Tenn.

Yes Finacastle is based in Virginia and I believe it straddles the state lines. Are you referring to Todd Satterfield?

[Paul Jones]

Mike,

I agree with you and having once lived in Atlanta/Alpharetta for 7 years, I am disappointed.  If it bothers you that much, stop paying.

I wonder what Chris Cupit opinion is since he owns a course.

Paul

[A.G._Crockett]

This seems such a simple question to me.  Of course, the GSGA is wrong to pursue and advertise out-of-state golf.  How could it be otherwise?

Greg Tallman, think of it this way.  If you were a course operator and paid an advertising agency to help you improve your business, would you consider your money to be well-spent if the ad agency wanted to post flyers in YOUR pro shop for courses which were in direct competition with you?  I think not; you would realize that golf dollars are in a very small pool, and that dollars that come out of the pool and go to your competitors don't come to you.  That's pretty simple.

The GSGA is more than an ad agency of course, but how could promoting golf in Myrtle Beach or the RTJ Trail possibly help Jekyll Island or the other state park courses, or the Lake Oconee area courses, or Callaway Gardens, and so on?  Again, this seems simple.

[Greg Tallman]

This seems such a simple question to me.  Of course, the GSGA is wrong to pursue and advertise out-of-state golf.  How could it be otherwise?

Greg Tallman, think of it this way.  If you were a course operator and paid an advertising agency to help you improve your business, would you consider your money to be well-spent if the ad agency wanted to post flyers in YOUR pro shop for courses which were in direct competition with you?  I think not; you would realize that golf dollars are in a very small pool, and that dollars that come out of the pool and go to your competitors don't come to you.  That's pretty simple.

The GSGA is more than an ad agency of course, but how could promoting golf in Myrtle Beach or the RTJ Trail possibly help Jekyll Island or the other state park courses, or the Lake Oconee area courses, or Callaway Gardens, and so on?  Again, this seems simple.

A.G.

Think of it this way. Does the GGA have a responsibility to the state's clubs or the state's golfing population and, if both, where is the proper balance struck? In favofr of the golfing population in my mind. I think the GGA fails in its charging of the $1250 fee. We (affiliated with the SCGA) pay $100 up front fee and then pay for individual handicaps as necessary.

[Mike_Young]

Greg,
Agree regarding how the fee is charged.  There is zero reason to charge me such a fee when I will not have that many guys sign up for handicaps.  I think it is more of them knowing what they need to operate and charging accordingly than doing as you suggest.   IMHO their responsibility lies with the member clubs an the individuals are members of the clubs which are the golf association members.  But I often ask myself that question now when it comes to the NGCOA and state golf assoc...how are they helping my bottom line?  The assoc is there because of the clubs and they depend on the cubs much more than the clubs depend on them.  IMHO

[A.G._Crockett]

This seems such a simple question to me.  Of course, the GSGA is wrong to pursue and advertise out-of-state golf.  How could it be otherwise?

Greg Tallman, think of it this way.  If you were a course operator and paid an advertising agency to help you improve your business, would you consider your money to be well-spent if the ad agency wanted to post flyers in YOUR pro shop for courses which were in direct competition with you?  I think not; you would realize that golf dollars are in a very small pool, and that dollars that come out of the pool and go to your competitors don't come to you.  That's pretty simple.

The GSGA is more than an ad agency of course, but how could promoting golf in Myrtle Beach or the RTJ Trail possibly help Jekyll Island or the other state park courses, or the Lake Oconee area courses, or Callaway Gardens, and so on?  Again, this seems simple.

A.G.

Think of it this way. Does the GGA have a responsibility to the state's clubs or the state's golfing population and, if both, where is the proper balance struck? In favofr of the golfing population in my mind. I think the GGA fails in its charging of the $1250 fee. We (affiliated with the SCGA) pay $100 up front fee and then pay for individual handicaps as necessary.

Clearly, the GSGA has a responsibility to both the clubs and the golfing population, and I suppose that there might be cases where the interests of the two are different.  Encouraging and informing the golfing population about opportunities, however, should not be one of those.  If the GSGA is going to serve the member clubs, then the information and encouragement should be limited to Georgia courses; the Chamber of Commerce in Alpharetta, where I live, doesn't encourage the residents to shop in other communities or counties, nor should they.

You are correct that it is the course operator's job to market their course, not the job of the GSGA.  BUT if the GSGA goes into the business of marketing courses, they should either do so in a way that helps the Georgia operators, or they should change their name, or they should stop charging courses for memberships in the organization.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,
Agree regarding how the fee is charged.  There is zero reason to charge me such a fee when I will not have that many guys sign up for handicaps.  I think it is more of them knowing what they need to operate and charging accordingly than doing as you suggest.   IMHO their responsibility lies with the member clubs an the individuals are members of the clubs which are the golf association members.  But I often ask myself that question now when it comes to the NGCOA and state golf assoc...how are they helping my bottom line?  The assoc is there because of the clubs and they depend on the cubs much more than the clubs depend on them.  IMHO

I never looked at a state golf association as an organization that was particularly beneficial to a club/course but rather one that whose real purpose was to privde handicap services along with event organization, promotion and operation.

They view clubs as merely the mechanism through which they conect with the golfing poulation and, to your point, should charge accordingly.

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