[jeffwarne]

Try skipping a progression of learning with a beginner and go right to passive hands and pure body release, or better yet tell them to simply "hold the club" and NOTHING good will happen.
Tiger Woods or any expert will work hard to take the hands out of their swings to create power and consistency, but only because their hands were trained 30 years ago and needn't feel like they're doing anythig.

High handicap and beginner golfers who read instruction for advanced-expert golfers only are doomed to not improve,and risk getting worse.

Thanks for this.


In the 1970's the was a book called "We learned to Ski" that amazingly broke out of the sports market and spent many weeks in the national UK book lists.  It broke down the steps you needed to do to move from snow plough through parallel skiing.  The forward was by Jean Claude Killy who at the time was easily the most famous skier in Europe.  It was brief and to the point saying something like ‘I am amazed to see what I’ve been doing all along, I learned so young I never had to understand it.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Killy

So Jeff here’s the question

Recommend one book for the 20+ handicapper and one book for the improvers 10-19?

I'll preface this by stating I've spent the last 13 years organizing and building a club, filling a membership, running an operation including F&B from the ground up, and most recently a 3 year in  house course reovation, so I've not studied what's happening on the cutting edge of the teaching world recently (not nessessarily a bad thing as there's a lot of baloney out there)
Prior to that for 15 years I spent 12 months a year studying, researching, spending time with great past and present teachers, and implementing what I had learned in golf schools and private lessons.
My point being there may be some recent publication that does a better job than the ones I list.
There are certainly more great teachers now than ever before, but there are more quacks than ever, who put their trust in fancy machines and software rather than experience, study, and an understanding of how different students develop.

19 + John Jacobs "Practical Golf"   great preview online if you google it
10-19  John Jacobs "Practical Golf", Jim McLean "8 Step Swing"
0-9 Jim McLean "8 Step swing"


Short game-All levels
 Paul Runyan "The Short Way to lower your Scores"
Jeff Warne "Shrink Your Handicap"  (read only the chapters on short game with pictures-the rest is publisher induced hooey and filler because they had no interest in a short game book, which I did-fortunately I was paid an advance and snuck it in;) )

[BCrosby]

Jeff -

Two things. First, my nephew was on the UGA golf team and now works for McLean. I am pleased to see you like his approach to instruction. Second, I did not know you had published a book. (A little more self promotion won't kill you! ) I will buy a copy.

Bob

[Colin Macqueen]

Jeff,
I agree wholeheartedly with your recommendation regarding John Jacobs "Practical Golf".  I have oscillated between a 13-15 handicap for the last decade and John Jacobs' book is the only one that made "practical" and good common sense to me. This book is the only "How to play" golf book that remains in my library.  Good book. Was John Jacobs the non-playing captain for the Walker Cup team or some such honour?

Cheers Colin

[David_Tepper]

I posted a link to an article about & interview with John Jacobs in Golf Digest when it appeared in 2011. It remains well worth reading (again!).

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2011-03/jacobs-diaz-lessons

It is interesting to note that Jacobs says the best 2 golf swings he has ever seen belong to Roberto de Vicenzo and Ian Woosnam.  

Watch Roberto hit a 380 yard drive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlwggq1yCdI

Dan Whitaker analyses Roberto's swing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ6XoLyNyXQ

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

David,
the mentioned Dan Whittaker is my teacher from Manchester, England.
Great young teacher that I feel will become one of the worlds best, great to see his input is appreciated here as well.

How about a gca Dan Whittaker weekend?

[Tony_Muldoon]

How about a gca Dan Whittaker weekend?

If you arrange it, they will come!

[David_Tepper]

"Was John Jacobs the non-playing captain for the Walker Cup team or some such honour?"

Colin M. -

As John Jacobs is/was a professional, I doubt he ever captained a GB&I Walker Cup team. According to the Golf Digest article I have linked, he was twice captain of the GB&I Ryder Cup team and played on that team at least once. He also played in 14 British Opens.

DT 

[Tom Kelly]

Just saw this video and I thought there were a few very interesting things said, especially at about the 10 min mark in relation to this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=dotzY38T-ek

It also seems quite topical with the Tiger love-in currently going on.

His swing doesn't look too shabby.

[Jeff Fortson]

newer golfers need to have their hands and arms trained to get a feel for swinging, a free release, and feeling the clubface.
As they progress to intermediate-advanced level, they need to be trained to control their release and clubface with the rotation of their body.
Better players will often describe the feeling as simply holding the club, or passive hands, or that their hands do nothing.
That's because their hands are already trained to swing freely and release, often to a fault, and they need to hold it off.
The stronger the grip and and/or the more closed the clubface, the more they need to passive hands through the ball

Try skipping a progression of learning with a beginner and go right to passive hands and pure body release, or better yet tell them to simply "hold the club" and NOTHING good will happen.
Tiger Woods or any expert will work hard to take the hands out of their swings to create power and consistency, but only because their hands were trained 30 years ago and needn't feel like they're doing anythig.

High handicap and beginner golfers who read instruction for advanced-expert golfers only are doomed to not improve,and risk getting worse.
People want to read what the best are working on, but most golfers would do well to read the works of Percy Boomer, Ernest Jones, Henry Cotton,John Jacobs,Tommy Armour,Bob Toski, Jim Flick,Harvey Penick, and Jim Mclean before moving onto the gurus who specialize in teaching Tour players.
Doesn't mean the gurus are not good teachers, just that the articles they write typically relate to the work and techniques they employ with experts(who already have trained hands and arms), because that's what magazines want.

Modern body release techniques were taught and used well before the modern equipment changed. Ben Hogan describes it in his 5 fundamentals, Jimmy ballard repioneered and evangelized the body release after the dark ages of advanced instruction in the 60s and 70's (the era of hang back and flip)
David Leadbetter was working with Nick Faldo with persimmon, balata, and blades. Jim McLean who popularized the term Progression of learning, has taught the big muscle swing for 30 + years to better players.
There are of course hordes of teachers who now teach the big muscle swing, because of the success of the above and others, and as a result, there are far more good-great players today.

Two players I have observed over the years who are awesome ballstrikers and have the ultimate big muscle swings, Hal Sutton and Hunter Mahan, have abysmal short games, due to the fact that they try to use a smaller big muscle swing for the short game, which often results in poor contact and abysmal feel. The good news is they miss very few greens.

 In the short game, the hands and arms have to be employed in the backswing to get the club in a striking position sooner, as well as to create feel. It's hard to toss a ball into a basket with your shoulder or trunk, but your hands will do just fine. A quiet hands, body release on the downswing however is quite desireable.
Handsier players usually are better bunker players and lobbers (Mickelson, Couples, Pavin, Donald, Tiger when he was handsier)
Pitching and chipping can be accomplished quite well with a proper body release, as long as the hands/wrists are preset, or allowed to set with minimal turn on the backswing (which is where and why big muscle short game players can suffer in the short game)

Boom.  Listen, Listen to Mr. Warne, he happens to know a little about this stuff.

[Jeff Fortson]

And to add one comment regarding relaease...

The day I "got it" regarding ballstriking was the day I learned how to release my hands.  The release wasn't a rolling of the hands, nor was it a release in a cupping and un-cupping of the hands.  It's when I learned to hinge the hands and then un-hinge them at impact that the world of golf opened up to me.


Jeff F.

[David_Elvins]

If anyone is bored, I would be interested in comment on this slightly related video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3MK9MIKnx0

[Jeff Fortson]

If anyone is bored, I would be interested in comment on this slightly related video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3MK9MIKnx0

I disagree with the narrator's comments regarding modern player's impact positions.  I agree withe the narrator's comments about the backswing being overrated in terms of importance.  Equipment is EXTREMELY different, especially the woods and shafts.  Modern equipment allows and almost requires elite golfers to swing with a heavier duty, post-impact release.  Even Hogan's hands unhinged at impact.  How do you think he flighted the ball from left to right?  You can't do it with flat hands and an inside out motion.  Physics will prove that.  An unhinged hand position will make the face open up at impact (unless you set up holding the club wide open).

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Bradley is one of those guys who really "gets it" when discussing the golf swing.
I have watched this clip many times and his selection of impact photos is great.
I agree with him in context, however, it is often easier to attain the desired impact position from a good backswing.
It is certainly optimal to not have to re route ones action ala Jim Furyk in terms of reliablility, but that is not to say it cannot be done.
But his concept that "on plane" really is a misnoma is something I believe most teachers will agree with.
There is a somewhat optimal range of backswing plane for each individual but it is juts that a certain amount of range.

What I really like about Bradley's comments are the  accuracy of his non release comments and that the body generates all the turn and that the hands simply respond, just look at all those impact photographs and see how the leg drive and left hip drive and leading the swing, there is no way that in any of these are the hands doing anything but responding to what the body and then ensuing momentum of the club head weight dictate.
As for Hogans ball flight, dictated by swing bath, not hands unhinging, that is what we have learned from all the evidence based information from Tracman out of Denmark, swing path DOMINATES ball flight, not clubhead position at impact.



UPDATE ON THIS.....MY MISTAKE,  SEE BELOW FOR THE ACCURATE INFORMATION..BLUNDER ON MY PART..GOT IT BACKWARDS

[Jason Thurman]

This has been a really great and interesting thread (even if off-topic) and I've been reading intently as a 9 handicapper working on a casting problem.

Michael, I'm a little confused by your last paragraph. You say swing path, and not clubhead position, dominates ball flight. Isn't swingpath relative to face angle? If I swing inside-out with an open club face, I ultimately just hit a straight shot because my path is square to the ball. The opposite is true for an outside-in with a closed face. What am I not understanding? Genuinely interested in the answer, as I feel like I'm missing something.

[Jason Topp]

Michael, I'm a little confused by your last paragraph. You say swing path, and not clubhead position, dominates ball flight. Isn't swingpath relative to face angle? If I swing inside-out with an open club face, I ultimately just hit a straight shot because my path is square to the ball. The opposite is true for an outside-in with a closed face. What am I not understanding? Genuinely interested in the answer, as I feel like I'm missing something.

This video explains how an on plane swing with a square clubface can produce a hook.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepMzddHpas

My numbers usually show an inside path and an open clubface and that still produces a hook.  I don't pretend to know the physics real well and I am unsure that learning them helps one to actually play better.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Jason,
This is what has come out of all the research that came out of Denmark and was the basis for the Tracman machine, it is often contardictory to what we have previoulsy thought.
I am trying to find the link to the research....which is rather entailed and hard to follow but very very enlightening.
Swing path dominates over clubface at impact, I would explain if I could, but will certainly post the research when I find it.
As I said it totaly changes what we have thought over the years
http://trackman.dk/getmedia/55e8af48-81db-4fee-9fa0-0e763e9ac9a5/TMNewsJan2009.aspx

See I got it totally backwards...I have been thinking the "new" way for so long now I forgot which was the old way....
 Good luck to all reading this and when you get totally confused..dont call me, as I was backwards already

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