[Wade Whitehead]

Who are the five best of all time?

WW

[Sidney Lin]

I knew Annika was in the business but when I did a google search I was surprised how many there have been and how many of them have had an influence on so many famous courses! 

http: //www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/features/female_golf_course_architects/female-golf-architects-index/

[Jeb Bearer]

Does Alice Dye count?

[Niall Hay]

Yes Dye counts. 

Marion Hollins has to be in there.

[Sven Nilsen]

Some of the early ones:

Ida Dixon - Springhaven CC - first female architect in the US and possibly the world

Isabella Dunn - Reno GC and Tahoe Tavern Resort - sister of John Duncan Dunn

Ms. Light - Cogher Links (NE) - 1900 Harpers Report notes a course of this name laid out by "Miss Light"

[Neil_Crafter]

Molly Gourlay, assistant to Tom Simpson for a number of years, must be high on the list.

Of recent times there is Jan Beljan, who worked with Fazio for many years, and Cynthia Dye Magarey. In Australia we have Lyne Morrison and Kristine Kerr (NZ). And there is Line Mortensen from Denmark.

[Sam Morrow]

More importantly, has a female ever designed a course worth a crap?

[Tom_Doak]

More importantly, has a female ever designed a course worth a crap?

Well, if you give Molly Gourlay any credit for Ballybunion [which some do], it's pretty good.

But in general, you are right, if these architects were men nobody would be talking about their careers.  Someday that will change.  I've got two young women among my interns right now and they are both very talented, but getting to be successful in this business takes more than talent.

[jeffwarne]

..

[Scott Sander]

But in general, you are right, if these architects were men nobody would be talking about their careers.

Tom-

Alice Dye's ASGCA profile lists credits for several courses - Long Cove among them.
Given your time with the Dyes -and only if you don't mind sharing!- what is your perspective on her involvement in the process and whether you consider her an "architect".

[Tyler Kearns]

Jan Beljan.  She worked as an associate for Tom Fazio for quite some time, and now has a company on her own.

TK

[Nigel Islam]

Like the hole or not, Alice Dye was responsible for one of the most famous (infamous?), iconic holes in the history of golf in the 17th at Sawgrass. I think that alone qualifies her as a golf architect. At least NBC must thinks so!

[Ian Andrew]

One thing that must be understood about being a Female Architect is the additional difficulty they face with sexism in golf.
Whether we want to believe it or not, sexism and racism are still around in this game.

I've spent time with five of the people listed on this thread and also Vicki Martz who did one of the Feature Interviews recently.
To be great you need talent and "opportunity."

Just sayin'

[Jeff_Brauer]

I once interviewed for a Florida job where Vicki had done the first course for Palmer.  The client couldn't stop raving about her in MY interview, so I knew I was pretty much toast as far as that job went, and they did in fact get the second course.

I have great respect for Jan Beljan and her work as well.

I have known Alice a long time, and probably TD would know better, but there is a sense she is really involved in making some key concept and maybe more importantly for Pete - editing of his concepts!  I didn't get the sense that she was a hop on the tractor kind of gal.

Someone once told me he thought Jan Stephenson was the biggest bust in golf architecture, but I am not sure he was talking about her golf design work........

[Tom_Doak]

I have known Alice a long time, and probably TD would know better, but there is a sense she is really involved in making some key concept and maybe more importantly for Pete - editing of his concepts!  I didn't get the sense that she was a hop on the tractor kind of gal.

Mrs. Dye was very closely involved with most of Pete's well-known projects between Crooked Stick in 1963 and Kiawah in the late 1980's - and maybe longer, but that's all I am sure about.  On most of those projects the Dyes rented a house near the site and Pete would be out there 5-6 days a week.

At Long Cove, Alice would come out 2-3 times a week, usually at lunchtime, and check out anything new that was being done and provide feedback.  She was NOT afraid to give feedback, and no matter what anybody on site was doing, there was a sense that it was not finished until Alice blessed it.  The only green I know of at Long Cove where she really made "design" suggestions was the 15th.  [When Ben Crenshaw came up the next year and picked his three favorite greens, Pete said afterward, "Well, I got one of them."]

And when I worked on the planning for PGA West, Alice would come into the office with Pete pretty often ... at which point we would have Pete, Alice, Lee Schmidt, Brian Curley and me in the room working on it ... and there was no question that her opinion on things was the most important to Pete.

As far as I know, Alice was not involved in the routing process, and for the most part she only "designed" a hole when Pete was stuck and looking for an idea.  Also, as far as I know, she never took the lead role on any particular project.  But there's no question that she could have if she wanted to -- and, to Ian's point, if someone would have hired her on her own.

There were two developers at Long Cove - Joe Webster, who had worked with Mr. Dye before, and a younger partner named David ?, who hadn't.  At one point David worried what would happen if something happened to Pete, because they had no plans or anything to go by.  Joe Webster told him to relax, in case of the worst Alice would finish the golf course and it would probably be better, and certainly less expensive.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I don't think you can adequately compare their various roles
There is a big difference between assisting/supporting a project and leading a project and having your name on the company while also doing the work

[Dave McCollum]

I have friends who own a place at Indian Palms CC in Indio, CA.  There are three nine-hole courses there.  The first, the Indian nine, was said to be designed by Jackie Cochran and Helen Detweiler, a golf pro, and opened in 1947.  Cochran is more well know as aviatrix, close friend of Amelia Erhart, and host to Hollywood celebrities visiting the desert.  I’ve played there quite often.  It must be one of the earlier housing development courses because all three courses basically play through narrow corridors surrounded by houses.  I find it a useful and affordable way to knock rust off my game mid-winter.  If you can play there, you’re ready to play more interesting courses.  Those houses take a beating and are so tight to the fairways that they’re best played as laterals.  As golf courses, they are noteworthy for how NOT to build houses next to a golf course.   My guess is that houses came later under a new developer/owner who was maximizing the lot sales and didn’t understand how much room is needed to play golf.

It’s impossible to include these courses in any “best” list because of the suffocating housing.  I just thought it interesting that a couple of women we designing golf courses 65 years ago.  They might have looked pretty good back in the day before housing.  The sheer density of the housing is a testament to some kind of popularity.

[Ian Andrew]

There were two developers at Long Cove - Joe Webster, who had worked with Mr. Dye before, and a younger partner named David ?, who hadn't.  At one point David worried what would happen if something happened to Pete, because they had no plans or anything to go by.  Joe Webster told him to relax, in case of the worst Alice would finish the golf course and it would probably be better, and certainly less expensive.  

There are moments where I love this site.   
Thanks Tom, I'm still laughing.

[Scott Sander]

Jeff and Tom-

Thanks for sharing the perspectives on Alice Dye.

  I'm particularly facinated by her and the role she may have played in some of my favorite courses.   Last year I had the chance to spend a day with Pete Dye, and I asked him about Sahm -a humble muni that was one of their earliest- and the line from "Bury me..." that implies Alice designed it.

  If I recall my question (which in hindsight I wished I'd worded ever-so-slightly differently), I asked who really built Sahm.  (Shoulda said 'designed', but I had been trying all day to avoid that word.)  He spent about 3 minutes telling me all the suggestions she made that were implemented that make it successful.  Then he grinned and said, "But I don't remember her up on that tractor in that heat pushing that dirt around.  (pause)  So I reckon I built that sucker."

At first I thought I'd gotten a pretty straight answer, but like a lot of things he told me that day, it got considerably less clear and more interesting the more I let it rattle around in my head.

[Howard Riefs]

A good question for Ran to include in his Feature Interview with Amy Alcott:

...Joel Stewart helps immensely with the Feature Interviews and is presently arranging one with Amy Alcott.

[Matthew Rose]

I thought I read somewhere that Alice was usually the one responsible for placement of the forward set of tees on Pete's courses.

One of my favorite anecdotes that I have read involved a suggestion of hers to always place the forward tee to the left of the cart paths so that when the lady tees off, you are viewing her from the front and not from behind.  

(Of course, left-handed ladies aren't so lucky!)

[Ross Harmon]

I personally know Alice Dye and Cynthia McGarey, so wanted to share a few thoughts on their contributions and work.

Tom is right in his point about Alice never being afraid to give her feedback, so I don't think her contributions to Pete's course designs should be discounted. She truly eats/ breathes/ sleeps golf and has won countless amateur tournaments. She was the first woman president of the ASGCA, and the first woman to serve as an independent director of the PGA. While indeed Alice Dye's design work has been alongside Pete, she has certainly thrown open the door to women in the architecture profession and golf community as a whole.

Most notable today to Alice would be her niece Cynthia Dye McGarey (Pete's late brother Roy's daughter), who has been designing alongside Pete, Alice, Roy, Perry and P.B. for over two decades and was accepted into the ASGCA last year. She is the lead designer on all of her current projects in China, Portugal, Azerbaijan and New Caledonia. I know Cynthia has had several women interns in her office over the past few years as well. I imagine we'll hear about more women in the field once (or if) the market ever picks up again now that the gender barrier has been greatly diminished.

[Angela Moser]

I'm happy to see Long Cove Club sometimes in the next two weeks or so...

It is interesting to hear all your experience and stories about females in the golf industry. I cross my fingers that there will be my name added to your guys list someday. 

[Lester George]

Alice has NO problem giving her input to Pete or others.  She has always been very helpful to me and a sweetheart in the process.  I actually got to know her before Pete because early in my career I had questions about some of her forward teeing philosophy.  I eventually just gave her a call and talked to her about it one evening.  Even before I joined the ASGCA I made it a habit to meet and speak with her as often as I could at industry gatherings.

A few years ago she played in a golf tournament at a course I renovated.  She was very complimentary about everything I had done EXCEPT one bunker I had built on the short game practice facility.  It was fairly steep walled and she said "I think you should do that one over, I can't get out of it, its too steep!"  I said, "Alice you won golf tournaments all over the planet, you have an excellent short game, and you live with the KING of steep, how is it you can't hit out of that particular bunker?".  She said, "My dear, I didn't say I couldn't hit a shot out it, I can't CLIMB OUT OF IT, the back wall is too high for me to step out!" 

Shortly thereafter I had two railroad tie stairs built into the back portion of the bunker.  The next time I saw her she gave me a really big hug.

Lester 

[Neil_Crafter]

Alice has NO problem giving her input to Pete or others.  She has always been very helpful to me and a sweetheart in the process.  I actually got to know her before Pete because early in my career I had questions about some of her forward teeing philosophy.  I eventually just gave her a call and talked to her about it one evening.  Even before I joined the ASGCA I made it a habit to meet and speak with her as often as I could at industry gatherings.

A few years ago she played in a golf tournament at a course I renovated.  She was very complimentary about everything I had done EXCEPT one bunker I had built on the short game practice facility.  It was fairly steep walled and she said "I think you should do that one over, I can't get out of it, its too steep!"  I said, "Alice you won golf tournaments all over the planet, you have an excellent short game, and you live with the KING of steep, how is it you can't hit out of that particular bunker?".  She said, "My dear, I didn't say I couldn't hit a shot out it, I can't CLIMB OUT OF IT, the back wall is too high for me to step out!" 

Shortly thereafter I had two railroad tie stairs built into the back portion of the bunker.  The next time I saw her she gave me a really big hug.

Lester 

Nice story Lester 

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