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Anthony Butler

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Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2012, 03:37:16 PM »
Summary of the last four posts on this thread:

1) Mike Young... 'let the members handle it'. That's a great idea... maybe you'll follow your own advice one day.

2) David Elvins-You are conflating my support for New South Wales with 100% approval of the changes Norman has made there over the last 8-10 years. Nothing could be be further from the truth. While Bob Harrison and Norman could reasonably claim some credit for the spectacular rise the course made on worldwide ranking lists between 1998-2006, I think the latest changes have increased the focus on accuracy on the very few holes where it is not already a premium... Consistency in this case, is the hobgoblin of mediocre minds...

3) Speaking of mediocre minds, does Gib know that by invoking Hitler he has immediately lost any internet-based argument? It's quite an analogy... Little old me daring to challenge the combined might of his and Pat Mucci's intellect is exactly like the Third Reich thinking they were a match for the collective Allied Powers in WWII. Given the amount of time spent in this thread giving tongue baths to all the deadbeats in South Florida supporting themselves on Madoff 'dividend' checks and assorted other financial scams for the last three decades, it's impressive how much energy you have left to display such enormous self-regard for your own 'inside baseball' opinions.

While everyone who has participated in this thread, including me, knows that Greg Norman can be a world-class douchebag (Of course, he's a rank amateur in that category compared to Pat's good friend Donald Trump) it strains credibility to think Norman's private life is so filthy he can no longer move as much as a shovel-full of dirt at a golf club which he helped found.

On the other hand, if it was just about 'going in another direction' it appears the club elders you hold in such high regard are simply not capable of having an adult discussion with one of the club founders (and a professional architect of some 25 years) before he threw all the toys out of the cot. No-one has to know the inside story to see there's about a million holes in the story you're pitching here ... so if you have any information about it, why not share with the common people and bring them out of the dark?

4) Gib-to paraphrase your rather bizarre Personal Message.... Sexual psychopath? Ted Bundy... Yes. Jeffrey Dahmer... Yes. Dominique Strauss-Kahn... I'll even give you that one..  But Greg Norman? Really... I mean Really? Tell me there weren't consenting adults involved and I'll tell you you were right to get your panties that wadded up...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 08:12:05 PM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2012, 04:29:40 PM »

I find it interesting indeed, to find within our community, a number of contributors  with their knickers in a twit about the sexual shenanigans of a couple of sports stars. I would hazard a guess that on a scale of one to ten, that Bill Clinton leaving some DNA residue on an intern's dress was far worse than Petraeus’ little nibble with his amanuensis. The General is forced into retirement and Bill, the former Commander-in-Chief and a perjurer to boot, is a highly paid shill and a darling of the Democratic Party.

When it come to extra marital sex it is best not to inquire too diligently into the behavior of many of our golfing icons.

Bob

« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 04:31:55 PM by Bob_Huntley »

Tim Pitner

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Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2012, 05:04:20 PM »
Bob,

In fairness, there really wasn't much outrage about Petraeus--many left of center commentators opined that the scandal wasn't serious enough to warrant resignation.  And I'm sure Petraeus will soon, if he isn't already, become a "highly paid shill" as well.  As for Clinton, it seems everyone, even Nixon, is rehabilitated at some point. 

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2012, 05:58:46 PM »
The plot thickens! Greg Norman's letter to the Medalist members:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2012/12/28/greg-normans-letter-to-medalist-members.html

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2012, 10:53:26 PM »
David,

That may be the tip of iceberg.

Bob,

Partner selection is THE critical factor in golf, business, marriage and affairs ;D

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2012, 11:07:26 PM »
Guys doing stupid things is not limited to well known middle age and older men. It is a big club.

Gib_Papazian

Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2012, 12:28:53 AM »
Anthony (or whatever your real name is),

Gawd, I hope we meet one day. Just so you know, I've received enough attaboys to make me blush from other posters sick of the artless prattle you leave like an unwelcome dog all over this website. And quit trying to pawn yourself off as some kind of Fortune 500 big shot because nobody believes your bullshit.

Even if you have actually sucked enough chrome to get to the top of the "money changer" septic tank, pulling out your 2" intellect and waving it around like a war club is only going to impress the big hair GED graduates in the slut pool. This card room is not for idiots or poseurs - which puts you at two strikes before the ump yells "play ball."

If anybody knows the Cricket equivalent (assuming the ubiquitous A. Butler is an Aussie, Kiwi or Brit), please speak up.

And know this if nothing else, it is painfully obvious those spitballs your 3rd grade intellect shoots across cyberspace are incapable of grasping a micron of what I was trying to get across to you. Swine do not sing and admittedly, it is horse on me to have forgotten that fact; but do not presume to know shit about another man's experiences.

Uncle Bob,

I've come to the point of viewing politicians as a festering vermin whose only objective is to replicate and infest every corner of our lives. With one exception - and my insightful father-in-laws still thinks I'm naive about us Libertarians - party affiliation seems irrelevant. Both Bill Clinton and Greg Norman are serial lotharios - which hardly gets my panties in a wad. I'm just sick and tired of (a) TMZ and the tabloid press reporting every celebrity peccadillo for my daughter to see, (b) these same idiot celebrities proudly flying their stinky laundry as some sort of birthright, and (c) the complete lack of discretion and disrespect in the press for the privacy of those dragged through the mud in the fallout. Collateral damage seems acceptable until the shrapnel is lodged in your posterior.

This is hardly the first time Norman has suffered a dismissal as a designer. Mirabel in Scottsdale was designed, constructed (FKA Stonehaven), bulldozed under and reconstructed in a new incarnation with Tom Fazio at the controls. The final results are quite honestly excellent. I'm not sure why Medalist is causing such a stir - unless it was sort of Norman's "Muirfield Village" or "Bay Hill" and his ego and social missteps got him escorted off the premises.

I've never had anybody tell me over a cocktail that The Medalist was any better than a decent 7, so perhaps I'm not grasping the gravity of this architectural divorce.             
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 11:04:49 AM by Gib Papazian »

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2012, 01:28:12 AM »
I've come to the point of viewing politicians as a festering vermin whose only objective is to replicate and infest every corner of our lives.     

Please make one exception on this one.   ;)
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2012, 08:58:59 AM »
 :D ::) ;)

Have read this topic with interest as a golf and architecture fan. It begs the question of power and ego.   Did the membership hierarchy rebel against Greg Norman's obvious influence on the club , or was there a serious complaint against architectural tweaking. Did he do it without any consensus from membership?  In reading the various letters and testimony, it's hard to determine .

I do know that Medalist  in its inception was incredibly difficult , for anyone , let alone a membership base north of fifty.  Jim Kaat tends to be the exception , not the rule , when it comes to golf masochism.

  Does anybody have any info on why Norman made the changes, or what precipitated them . If it wasn't membership frustration with the inherent difficulty of the design, what else caused him to tinker.

 Given when it was built, and his work ethic and methodology, Pete Dye did most of the design and build , with some ??? imput from Norman.  I assume proximity  and time spent there, given it was his home club, led to Norman's increasing influence in the club.  Maybe I missed it, but the membership appears to own the club , and he is just a single member, albeit an influential one.

Dye seems reticent about getting involved, which doesn't surprise me. But I'm guessing he might not be in concert with Norman or Bobby Weed on how to go forward, or backward.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 09:03:49 AM by archie_struthers »

Matt Day

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2012, 09:33:30 AM »
Can we please be clear on two things
1. Not all Aussies think that the sun shines out of Greg Norman's clacker
2. No one in Australia drinks Fosters. It's camels piss and reserved for Tourism
Australia purposes only

Thank You

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2012, 10:14:20 AM »
Anthony (or whatever your real name is),

Gawd, I hope we meet one day. Just so you know, I've received enough attaboys to make me blush from other posters sick of the artless prattle you leave like an unwelcome dog all over this website. And quit trying to pawn yourself off as some kind of Fortune 500 big shot because nobody believes your bullshit.

Even if you have actually sucked enough chrome to get to the top of the "money changer" septic tank, pulling out your 2" intellect and waving it around like a war club is only going to impress the big hair GED graduates in the slut pool. This card room is not for idiots or poseurs - which puts you at two strikes before the ump yells "play ball."

If anybody knows the Cricket equivalent (assuming the ubiquitous A. Butler is an Aussie, Kiwi or Brit), please speak up.

And know this if nothing else, it is painfully obvious those spitballs your 3rd grade intellect shoot across cyberspace are incapable of grasping a micron of what I was trying to get across to you. Swine do not sing and admittedly, it is horse on me to have forgotten that fact; but do not presume to know shit about another man's experiences.

Uncle Bob,

I've come to the point of viewing politicians as a festering vermin whose only objective is to replicate and infest every corner of our lives. With one exception - and my insightful father-in-laws still thinks I'm naive about us Libertarians - party affiliation seems irrelevant. Both Bill Clinton and Greg Norman seem serial lotharios - which hardly gets my panties in a wad. I'm just sick and tired of (a) TMZ and the tabloid press blasting every celebrity peccadillo for my daughter to see, and (b) idiot celebrities proudly flying their stinky laundry as some sort of birthright, and (c) the complete lack of discretion and disrespect in the press for the privacy of those dragged through the mud in the fallout. Collateral damage seems acceptable until the shrapnel is lodged in your posterior.

This is hardly the first time Norman has suffered a dismissal as a designer. Mirabel in Scottsdale was designed, constructed (FKA Stonehaven), bulldozed under and reconstructed in a new incarnation with Tom Fazio at the controls. The final results are quite honestly excellent. I'm not sure why Medalist is causing such a stir - unless it was sort of Norman's "Muirfield Village" or "Bay Hill" and his ego and social missteps got him escorted off the premises.

I've never had anybody tell me over a cocktail that The Medalist was any better than a decent 7, so perhaps I'm not grasping the gravity of this architectural divorce.             


Quite a tantrum old man... Hope you didn't throw your sippy cup too far away...You'll need it for your next 'cocktail' while you tut-tut Greg Norman putting the moves on your daughter.
Next!

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2012, 10:29:12 AM »
It is the opinion of this writer and the vast majority of golfers I know, that everyone hates the design of the Medalist, just too bleak and difficult, no fun what so ever. After playing it twice, I routinely turned down invites to play it.

I think the board did the correct thing in hiring Bobby Weed, who will hopefully give them a much better product.

As to Greg Norman's letter and attitude, sorry pal, your ego is bruised, you have been confronted with some rejection which is long over due for this project.

As far as his "dick" goes, boys will be boys, but I hear that Christy was just as much the aggressor as Greg. She was the Alpha
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tim Martin

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Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2012, 10:43:46 AM »
By Pete Dye signing the 12/4/12 letter he is certainly complicit as to not wanting any connection to the Booby Weed changes which at least on the surface seems to add relevance to Norman's position on the architecture argument. I will not speculate as to Weed and Dye's relationship although as a protege you would think some professional courtesy would have been extended as related to the proposed changes. Does anyone know of another situation where Dye has asked that his name be pulled after the fact or in this case SO long after the fact?

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2012, 10:52:21 AM »
By Pete Dye signing the 12/4/12 letter he is certainly complicit as to not wanting any connection to the Booby Weed changes which at least on the surface seems to add relevance to Norman's position on the architecture argument. I will not speculate as to Weed and Dye's relationship although as a protege you would think some professional courtesy would have been extended as related to the proposed changes. Does anyone know of another situation where Dye has asked that his name be pulled after the fact or in this case SO long after the fact?

Tim,

I was curious about Dye signing the letter as well.  Do you think it's really a strong objection over the changes?  Could it simply be that he didn't want to offend Greg publically by leaving him on an island in his protests?  For all I know, Dye just signed the letter, knowing full well that his architectural legacy is secure and that no one will forget he designed the course, despite any further official mention.

There's some irony in a multiple-divorcee attempting to "annul" his architectural connection to a course, as if it never existed.  I wonder if he'll have to go to Pope Doak or Cardinal Crenshaw to delete the course from his past.


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2012, 11:00:24 AM »
By Pete Dye signing the 12/4/12 letter he is certainly complicit as to not wanting any connection to the Booby Weed changes which at least on the surface seems to add relevance to Norman's position on the architecture argument. I will not speculate as to Weed and Dye's relationship although as a protege you would think some professional courtesy would have been extended as related to the proposed changes. Does anyone know of another situation where Dye has asked that his name be pulled after the fact or in this case SO long after the fact?

Tim,
I have a feeling you are reading too much into this.  Kevin L, above, has suggested a much better take on it....things aren't always as they seem.
Kevin,
hmmmmm.. ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2012, 11:11:30 AM »
By Pete Dye signing the 12/4/12 letter he is certainly complicit as to not wanting any connection to the Booby Weed changes which at least on the surface seems to add relevance to Norman's position on the architecture argument. I will not speculate as to Weed and Dye's relationship although as a protege you would think some professional courtesy would have been extended as related to the proposed changes. Does anyone know of another situation where Dye has asked that his name be pulled after the fact or in this case SO long after the fact?

Tim,
I have a feeling you are reading too much into this.  Kevin L, above, has suggested a much better take on it....things aren't always as they seem.
Kevin,
hmmmmm.. ;D ;D ;D


Mike- I have absolutely no knowledge of the workings of the club or Norman's involvement/actions as related to the recent decisions.I was just throwing out the Dye angle to try to garner more insight into the situation as some posters who have inside information indicted that "another shoe would drop" in time. Kevin certainly puts forth a plausible explanation.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2012, 11:18:51 AM »
Mike- I have absolutely no knowledge of the workings of the club or Norman's involvement/actions as related to the recent decisions.I was just throwing out the Dye angle to try to garner more insight into the situation as some posters who have inside information indicted that "another shoe would drop" in time. Kevin certainly puts forth a plausible explanation.

Tim -

My scenario was just an alternate guess and really an extension of what you said.  I have never heard of anything like this in Dye's history, and he seems like the type of person who doesn't care what others think publically.  Thus, I suspect he signed the letter more for Greg than himself.

However, as Pat Mucci has mentioned a few times, there is much more going on so I am just speculating.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2012, 11:20:41 AM »
Can someone tell me why this is such a big deal?

Courses get changes all the time.  Many of the top designers have seen their work bastardized.  Norman decides to have his name removed on this one.

Why should I care about this?



Not being confrontational...seriously trying to understand why I should into this.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2012, 11:29:15 AM »
There's plenty of Greg Norman stories floating around beyond his distruption of the Mills / Evert household.

Wouldn't repeat the story that floated around the Palm Beaches in the mid 90's in its entirety, but to summarize in the style of "Clue" (the boardgame)

Norman, on Aussie Rules, in the presence of Laura and the Hobe Sound Garden Club

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2012, 11:40:59 AM »

There's some irony in a multiple-divorcee attempting to "annul" his architectural connection to a course, as if it never existed.  I wonder if he'll have to go to Pope Doak or Cardinal Crenshaw to delete the course from his past.

I don't know how I got to be Pope of who designed what, and I certainly don't know how Ben Crenshaw would be responsible for it ... I think Ron Whitten wrote the book on that.  And I believe Ron has decided to disavow his own participation in Erin Hills, so maybe he and Greg can have a heart-to-heart talk about it.

Personally, I've never understood how anyone "takes their name off" a course after they've done it.  To have such a clause in your contract and expect a client to sign it is the ultimate in controlling behavior.  

Perhaps this is all just about marketing -- if the club was paying Norman a fee to use his name to promote the course, he could ask that they stop (and they could stop paying).  But if he identified part of his design fee as a license for the use of his name, and then wants to rescind that, perhaps he owes them some money back?  Or perhaps not after 19 years.

I have not talked to Pete Dye about this nor would I.  However, it is worth pointing out that Bobby Weed is not the only protege of Mr. Dye's who is involved.  Jason McCoy, who was the construction superintendent for The Ocean Course at Kiawah and for The Medalist, signed on as one of Greg's lead associates* right after The Medalist was completed, with Pete's encouragement.  So it's really impossible for Pete to support all of his former associates in this battle.

* Note:  I just went to Greg Norman Golf Course Design's web site to try and find Jason's official title, to no avail.  No other members of his design team seem to be credited anywhere on their site.  I have seen Jason listed as a Vice President or President of the company in some articles but cannot confirm it online.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2012, 12:04:04 PM »
 ??? ;) ???

Mac why the interest ?  I could care less about Normans personal life relative to GCA and this site, but I am interested in the evolution of the golf course, and why changes were made.  It speaks to what we should design /build.  I don't think we have answered that question yet , though some have postulated. 

Having spent a little time with Pete Dye , and knowing about his work , his take interests me . He seems singularly immune from responding to the "critics" or general public, and builds what he likes and sees in his mind. He is an iconic figure in GCA, as Norman is in golf. Their interaction and the evolution of this golf course is interesting to me.  I'd like to focus more on why the changes were made, and what precipitated them. It appears that they were much more Norman than Dye.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2012, 12:06:36 PM »
Can someone tell me why this is such a big deal?

Courses get changes all the time.  Many of the top designers have seen their work bastardized.  Norman decides to have his name removed on this one.

Why should I care about this?



Not being confrontational...seriously trying to understand why I should into this.

Mac,

Can't speak for anyone else, but my interest is simply the general topic of how architects react when their work is changed.  In this case, it seems to be how the members react (like Kaat's letter).  it's even more interesting when the person making the changes was involved in the original design and long-time member.  It's intriguing to me (regardless of Greg's extracurricular pee-pee activity or people's personal feelings toward his ego).

As you said, original works are often changed, but I don't recall many instances with the request to remove names.  It's an unusual case study when the architect reacts publicly.

Insight from architects is probably my favorite aspect of this forum, so I thought this would be a good topic to follow.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2012, 02:57:11 PM »
I thought Fosters was kangaroo p*ss, not camel p*ss?

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2012, 03:22:10 PM »

There's some irony in a multiple-divorcee attempting to "annul" his architectural connection to a course, as if it never existed.  I wonder if he'll have to go to Pope Doak or Cardinal Crenshaw to delete the course from his past.

I don't know how I got to be Pope of who designed what, and I certainly don't know how Ben Crenshaw would be responsible for it ... I think Ron Whitten wrote the book on that.  And I believe Ron has decided to disavow his own participation in Erin Hills, so maybe he and Greg can have a heart-to-heart talk about it.


Tom,

You are right - Pope Whitten is probably the appropriate "keeper of names" who would need to annul Medalist from Norman's past.  I mentioned you & Crenshaw while thinking about the "infallibility" of the Pope.   :)


But, bringing this somewhat back to the architecture world, I'd be curious to hear from the architects on the board.

Is there an really an "accepted professional courtesy" that the original architect be contacted before any changes are made (as Norman claimed in his letter)?  Is there ever language put in contracts addressing future revisions?

Generally, when you learn of revisions at one of your designs, do you feel the desire to contact the club and understand why (whether motivated by pride or a desire to improve your craft if there were legitimate concerns)?

As always, I'm grateful to have any feedback from those in practice.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2012, 06:26:35 PM »
Tim, Kevin and Archie,

My recollection, and it could be flawed, is that the course was primarily Dye, and that it was intended to be a difficult challenge.

Once built, it was under Norman's care and guidance.
It was a very difficult, narrow test that was one of those course you enjoyed on occassion, but not as a steady diet.
So, it had to be softened, for members, guests and potential members and I think that's when Greg began tinkering

Norman had previously been a member of Old Marsh, another challenging Pete Dye course.
However, Old Marsh had very generous fairways, a luxury not afforded at The Medalist.
I think the fact that Greg was such a spectacular driver of the golf ball may have been an architectural liability in terms of him being able to design a golf course for the broad spectrum of golfers represented by the Medalist membership and their guests.
Administratively, The Medalist was always very well run.  But the golf course had deficiencies or perhaps excessively challenging features.
I happened to like the effort to introduce brick sod faced bunkers.  They were very unique and demanding.

One of the flaws, that I perceived, was the narrowness of the fairways and how it was a major factor on dogleg holes where good drives, hit straight, ran through the fairway and into disastrous lies resulting in high scores.

The 4th hole, a most unusual par 3, a volcano hole, which I liked, probably went through half a dozens iterations with the current hole more like the original.

So, the tinkering continued as Greg tried to "get it right"

The tinkering ceased being tinkering and became major redesign when # 17 and # 18 were totally changed.

When I first saw the revised 18th, I thought they had brought Fazio in to do the work.
It was wildly out of character with the rest of the course..  So the course was beginning to take on multiple personalities in term of design.
The original continuity, irrespective of what you thought of the individual holes, was being lost.

Recently, and I don't know at whose direction, efforts have been made to widen the playing corridors, essentially peeling back the very penal nature of the golf course, making the course far more user friendly for all levels of golfers.

The Medalist is a course that, from it's origins, had the ability to be a good golf course by merely widening the playing corridors, but for some reason, that wasn't the primary focus of the tinkering.  A well thought out Master Plan should improve the golf course.
From an outsider's perspective, if Greg hasn't gotten it right after all these years, then, someone else needs to be retained to improve the golf course.

That's all for now ;D

As to the Great Pete Dye, he's probably a victim of circumstances and a reluctant participant.

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