[Peter Pallotta]

Tom, Don - I think you've gotten to the heart of the question: whether or not most architects (and most artists/craftsman in any field) have so internalized the popular taste and have been so influenced/shaped in their ideas and ideals by what passes for mainstream success that, even if they were given all the freedom in the world, most would still come out with exactly what was expected (save for a bell or whistle here or there) -- and be quite sure that it was exactly what they wanted/intended to do all along. Nothing wrong with that really, but if the answer is yes -- if the we have become the they -- then the future will likely be very much like the past.

As an old time Hollywood producer once said: in the old days it was all about money, which was okay, because you could satisfy greed; but today it's about money and ego, and that's the problem -- there's no satisfying ego.

Peter  

[Mike_Young]

I still don't see it being as bright as some on here think.  First, all of the architects of the last 20 years have actually not been about the architecture.  They have been about development.  And the "signatures" have been about marketing.  I sense that the "associates" of many of the "pro golfer signatures" have found it a hard go and will continue because of a couple of things.  1.  Budgets were rarely a concern the way they are for most. 2.  Most clients are "greater fools" when it comes to golf design and they hired their "signature" for marketing much more so than design abilities.  But design abilities were always overcome by exorbitant maintenance budgets.  3.  Their experience was often mainly "office" and on many construction site visits it was as much asking the contractor how to get to where they wanted to be as it was getting dirty.  4.  It was once said that there were two ways to get in the business; either luck or be born into it.  Blood is thicker than water and that will continue to be the way it works.  Children of the "signature" can carry the name ( if signature courses continue) much easier than an old associate and the "agent of the signature" will have an interest in seeing that it continues. The agent will get it done for the heir.
Now the other thing that is often overlooked on here is networking.  The "architect" that has always felt his technical expertise with drawings and other items would provide is incorrect IMHO.  Forget for a minute how much you guys on this site admire the work of Tom Doak as an example.  I mean this with the utmost of respect when I say that his most important aspect of his business was figuring how to create his network and use that network to obtain the sites and clients.  If you can't sell in a very hostile environment then don't think you can be in this business.  So many guys miss this, especially the ones that have worked for signatures because they never had to worry about getting the business.  And that was the most critical part of growing a firm when you were not a signature.  Guys that have never had to sell it or have had it done for them do not care for those of us that have had to.    JMO

[Rob Rigg]

Fascinating thread - very thoughtful commentary.

Since the bottom has fallen out of the GC construction market, and jobs have become harder to get, have the people in the industry seen an uptick in the quality of architects who are getting the rather small number of available jobs?

I have been, admittedly, out of the loop for a while but it seems like some of the artists in the business are getting a higher percentage of the jobs available versus "the sigs" than ten years ago. eg) Cabot, Streamsong, even Hainan

It also seems like "the sigs" are not getting the traction they used to because budgets are, must be, lower and, the lack of RE developments has taken many "less artistic" architects out of the game.

If that is the case, and some sort of Darwinism is happening based on the artistic quality of previous work, then maybe the future is bright because a difficult and painful weeding out process is occurring?

[Tom_Doak]

Forget for a minute how much you guys on this site admire the work of Tom Doak as an example.  I mean this with the utmost of respect when I say that his most important aspect of his business was figuring how to create his network and use that network to obtain the sites and clients.  If you can't sell in a very hostile environment then don't think you can be in this business.  So many guys miss this, especially the ones that have worked for signatures because they never had to worry about getting the business.  And that was the most critical part of growing a firm when you were not a signature.  Guys that have never had to sell it or have had it done for them do not care for those of us that have had to.    JMO

Mike:

Wish I could take more credit for that grand plan, but really I just stumbled onto it because I was so fearless in getting out and seeing places and meeting people when I was 20-25 years old.

But, to state what you're trying to say another way:  the future of golf design would ALWAYS have been bright if only the "right" guys were getting the work.  They've always been out there; it's just that the clients are often not the best guys to pick them out.  I don't think the big "signature" housing projects are going to come back for some time to come [bad news for Jack Nicklaus' sons], but you are right that the dynamics of who gets hired haven't really changed much.

The only reason Bill Coore and Gil Hanse and I have gotten to the top of the pyramid for a moment is because all the housing projects have gone away, and we were the guys who made our reputations on golf-only projects, which are all there is right now.  But there aren't very many of them.  And if other projects start coming back to make a vibrant market for golf courses, they will start coming back for all the wrong reasons, and the smart young architects may not get those jobs.  But, one can hope!

[David_Elvins]

And that is the crux of what Camille is saying there is no depth to the art. Modern art lacks any attempt to appreciate or understand the great works of the past and to pay particular attention to why they make us contemplate them. There is no permanence in modern artist’s approach because their goals are so focuses in the now, which is essentially an immediate response to what they’ve done. Because of this newfound approach Camille suggests that much of the current visual arts are done to elicit a reaction rather than contemplation. Camille felt almost modern visual art work suffers from trying to be shocking rather than even provocative.

Camille is obviously a LOT more in tune with the art world than me but IMO there is a big flaw in her thinking.

IMO Contemplation ties in heavily to the imagination of the context of the creation of the art. 


For art to make you contemplative, it helps to be from another time and place.  From my experience, there is often nothing contemplative about modern art because it is so from a place so familiar - often i think "I could do that".  BUT, go to a gallery of modern chinese art, or modern indonesian art and it is incredibly contemplative because it transports the viewer to another perspective in the way that the classic artists transport you to a different time and place.

It is the same with golf course architecture.  Great golf course architecture is contemplative because it transports you to a different era.  It's a fantasy from another time and place, and that is it's real allure.

[Ian Andrew]

David,

Your comments on MOdern Art from different cultures was very interesting.

It is the same with golf course architecture.  Great golf course architecture is contemplative because it transports you to a different era.  It's a fantasy from another time and place, and that is it's real allure.

I don't agree with your comment on golf.

I find myself contemplating "the subtle ideas" of a course whether built now or 100 years ago.
A slope, a roll, a route in, some form of minor feature that is not initially obvious but has serious implications on what I or others may want to do.

When everything is obvious, planned for and built for a clear cut result, I don't contemplate the work ... but I do occasionally throw up in my mouth. Perhaps that's what Camille meant about Modern Art having no depth.

[Mac Plumart]

As a relative newbie to golf, it seems to me we are living in great times.

There may not be a lot of courses being built, but what is being built seems to be quite good.  And some of the renovation work also appears outstanding.

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