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Sam Morrow

Re: Best Examples of Strategic Wide Fairways
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2012, 11:00:11 PM »
It's funny Richard, you're right about that being a mantra around here yet I recall one of the bigger knocks on The Prairie Club being it's width.

As I recall, the knock wasn't the width, but the lack of importance where one hits it in the fairway.

I found plenty of importance and interesting angles and nuances but as I recall the biggest complaints were from someone who seemed to have a chip on their shoulder about Prairie Club. I have no problem saying one of the most enjoyable days of my golf life was all day at Prairie Club and playing The Horse until I couldn't see my nose.

John Kirk

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Re: Best Examples of Strategic Wide Fairways
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2012, 12:02:03 AM »
I would think the two important aspects of fairway strategy are 1) the risk of hitting down the preferred side, and 2) having pin position determine the best position from the fairway.  I think both are required for a wide fairway to be considered great, and I don't see an example yet that satisfies the second requirement.  Pat Mucci's example of Mountain Ridge #1 comes close.

I say Ballyneal #13 only satisfies 1).  I always aim center, and being 260 or so hitter in the light air, I often end up with that uphill lie.  In my opinion, the left third of the fairway is always the best angle of approach, and if the pin is right behind the greenside bunker, I might try to hit it left.  From the 500 yard tee, it doesn't matter, and I just try to hit it solid somewhere.

I like Ballyneal #7 and #12 more in terms of overall strategy.

Pumpkin Ridge, Witch Hollow, has three par fours where the best line off the tee depends on pin position, enough so that I will play for the proper side more than half of the time.  #16 in particular is a textbook example of the second requirement, a 3 leaf clover green with front, back left and back right bowls, with a wide fairway.  Not a sexy hole, but a very simple way to demand one half of the fairway off the tee.  The par 5 #13 at Pasatiempo has a similar third shot strategy.

When the pin is back right on Kinloch #2, there is a premium for a long drive down the left.  When the pin is front to middle left, the right side works a bit better.

A decent picture of Kinloch #2.  As I get older, it may be I appreciate simple, more obvious choices like this one.


« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 12:12:02 AM by John Kirk »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Best Examples of Strategic Wide Fairways
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2012, 08:39:26 AM »
John Kirk,

Why don't you visit the NYC area again and come and play Mountain Ridge so that you can see how Ross designed the wide fairways in harmony, strategically, with the greens in general. and specific hole locations in particular ?

Hole after hole after hole presents the strategic choice of being in the preferred portion of the fairway if you want to have the ideal approach into the green.

It's really a Ross gem, one of his finest works.

You too Sweeney, when are you visiting ?


Matthew Petersen

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Re: Best Examples of Strategic Wide Fairways
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2012, 11:54:19 AM »

Matthew, if the left side requires a more difficult tee shot, then you're right. That's strategic. Your original post doesn't mention that and I don't know anything about how dangerous the left side is since I haven't played the course. What about the left side makes it more treacherous?


Jason,

Regarding Matthew's suggestion of WeKoPa - taking the left line isn't overly treacherous. However, due to the angle, it doesn't take much of a tug to find the desert, which is always a crap-shoot result at best. I can see your argument, but there is a risk of over doing it down that side. Now, because of the shape of the fairway, a shot aimed out near that lone bunker would REALLY have to be mishit to find trouble.

I did play the hole a few years ago and if you can hit a really good drive on the aggressive line to the left, the hole becomes very easy. Playing out to the right requires you to play over the fronting bunker (which gets more in my head the older I get) from a considerably longer distance.

This is correct when it comes to the hole at WeKoPa. To get a good angle you have be really close on the left side and the desert borders very closely there. Because of the way the tees are angled, this isn't just a question of lining up down the left and not pulling it. The tees have a bit of an angle to them so you need to either hit a controlled draw or really pick a good line for the length of shot you're going to hit.

As to Jason's point about being able to hit a recovery shot from rough, that's absolutely true ... but it's still very rare for anyone to aim for the rough. Fairway is what the player sees. As Tom said w/r/t 10 at Riviera, many players naturally just try to hit to the middle of any fairway they see. Even the middle of the fairway at Riv #10 is probably too far to the right. Same goes for the hole I mentioned. That's one of the benefits of the wide fairway in both instances. It lulls a player into thinking it's an OK place to be, since it's short grass, but it's not really where you want to be at all.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Examples of Strategic Wide Fairways
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2012, 02:38:58 PM »
John Kirk,

Why don't you visit the NYC area again and come and play Mountain Ridge so that you can see how Ross designed the wide fairways in harmony, strategically, with the greens in general. and specific hole locations in particular ?

Hole after hole after hole presents the strategic choice of being in the preferred portion of the fairway if you want to have the ideal approach into the green.

It's really a Ross gem, one of his finest works.

You too Sweeney, when are you visiting ?


Much appreciated, Patrick.  That's a very nice offer.  I have some close friends back there I'd like to see.  Maybe we can do it next year.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Examples of Strategic Wide Fairways
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2012, 05:44:36 PM »
I'll have to chew on this one a while. Great topic. Reminds me of the old days.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

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