[Ted Sturges]

What a ridiculous response to Patrick's post, it's sad to see this website spiral downward.  A great question that is met by a childish response.

That's it?  That's your contribution to this thread?

FWIW, Mr Mucci has a long history of starting threads that appear, deliberately, to exclude those not privileged enough to havce access to the courses he does.  Of course it is possible to start threads that discuss these great courses and holes on them in a way that allows the majority to at least follow the thread.  Mr Mucci chooses not to.  There may be a downward spiral here but, if there is, Mark Chaplin isn't reflecting it, you are.

How sad.  This site is a place for those interested in golf architecture to LEARN.  Some of the greatest examples of golf architecture are on courses that are "hard" to get access to.  Does that mean those who don't have access to those places wouldn't be interested in learning about those courses?  Certainly not.  Another point that is being missed (and missed badly) here is that this site is full of members of places that are "hard" to get to.  There are countless examples of invitations being extended by GCA'ers who have access to GCA'ers who don't have access in the spirit of (a) making a new friend and (b) helping someone with genuine interest in golf architecture visit some of the great courses in the world. Usually this sort of thing happens when someone's participation in this site exhibits an aptitude for understanding golf architecture and a hunger to see and learn more.  Sadly, some involved in this post have missed that point entirely and are going out of their way to absent themselves from these sort of invitations/opportunities.  

TS

[Mark Pearce]

Ted Sturges,

I just drafted a long reply to your post and then thought better of it.  If you want to believe that's what I'm on about (and Mark, for that matter) feel free to.  You can ignore all the evidence of our previous posts on other threads if it makes it easier for you to think that this is about access. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ted & Mike,

Stop wasting your time on the two whinning "Marks", as they're just constant, chronic complainers where I'm concerned.

I started some threads on Sebonack for several reasons.
One, because the U.S. Women's Open will be played there in June
Two, because that event will be televised to the world, thus everyone can see it.
Three, because one of the architects is a frequent contributor to this site and can provide insight not otherwise available on most threads.
Four, because I had just played the course for 3 straight days in their Member-Guest, with my host being my old public high school friend.

I was also hoping that others who had played the course could post photos since I don't have that capability.

I'm still waiting for Mark Chaplin to provide his list of courses for me to review.
Mark, what's taking you so long ?  ?  ?
Why haven't you compiled your list yet ?

The Knoll, Essex County West and Bethpage are three public courses in the Met NYC area that I have posted on.
Have either of the "Marks" played them ?

Mark and Mark, what courses have you played in the Metro NYC area ?

Mark and Mark are terribly resentful and jealous that I get invited to a number of golf courses.

Mark & Mark, why do you suppose, that this year, I've been invited to play NGLA, Atlantic, Hollywood, Baltusrol Upper, Baltusrol Lower, Arcola, Bayonne, Quaker Ridge, Sebonack, Jasna Polana, Crestmont, Seminole, Old Marsh, Southampton, Shinnecock, Ridgewood, Hackensack, Shackamaxon, The Knoll and others ? 

Should I decline those invitations for fear of offending you ?

When I play these courses, ideas and threads pop into my head.
Should I dismiss those ideas and thread concepts and not post on GCA.com ?

What have your posting histories been ?

Have you created interesting threads on GCA.com ?

How many ?

I'm going to continue to post on courses I've played, not courses I haven't played and I really don't care what you malcontents think.
If you don't like the subject of my threads, don't tune into them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm not so sure I get many of the similarities either. Sebonack is a much tighter driving hole.

Brian,

# 10 isn't tight at all.  It's a very wide fairway in the DZ.
Go to Google Earth, view and measure it from an altitude of 425 m and you'll see that the fairway is quite generous.
PD's DZ is about 25 % wider, but, both are very wide fairways and certainly not narrow by any stretch of the imagination.
Sebonack narrows down were the cross bunker is, just like NGLA's 3rd, but the cross bunker, other than into a head wind, shouldn't present a challenge to most golfers playing from the appropriate tees.

From the back tee # 10 is 388, downhill then uphill.  PD is 316, downhill than uphill.
Into the wind I hit punched wedges and a punched 9-iron this weekend.

There is not really any room out right on 10 at Sebonack -

I don't understand that comment, with such a wide fairway, how far off the centerline do you have to be before you encounter trouble on the right ?

you almost have to be going for the green to bother with going there

I don't understand that comment either. I can't come close to driving that green.
On all three days I drove it over the bunker to try to give me the best angle into that green, which I didn't want to come into from the left side of the fairway.  With a center line drive, the green plays like a redan, which helps the golfer avoid the deep left greenside bunker.

(which many do I am sure but leave themselves a really tough pitch with their second).

That's a very easy pitch.
You have the entire right side off green shoulder to work with in addition to the right side slope in the front of the green.
If the hole is cut back, you can either fly your ball to the back or funnel it to the back like a redan.

Whereas at Pacific, you can get away with a slice.

I'm not so sure about that.
Ive seen golfers leave their sliced drives on the hillside.
And, doesn't the outcome of a sliced drive depend upon where you were aiming to begin with ?
If you aimed at the center of the fairway, your slice will be fine.
If you aimed at the right side of the fairway, you've got problems.
Don't those circumstances apply to both courses ?

Also, the shot from left of 6 at Pac Dunes is brutal -

Ditto Sebonack

but you have a nice bowled green / backstop at Sebonack, making it probably an easier second than from the right as that same backstop which cushions a shot from the left, propels the ball away from you at Sebonack. See below.

There is no substantive backstop when approaching from the right and your photo is taken, high and right of the green, certainly not on any angle of approach from the fairway.  And, the green runs away from you in the back, hence the mound you see offers very little in comfort to a ball rolling down that green. The major backstop is the bank/slope on the right, which aids balls driven left, not right, if the hole is cut in certain locations.

With the hole cut in the back portion of # 10, the approach from the left is brutal and with the slope and firmness of the green, holding the green is difficult, even with a very short iron.

The further the drive, the less the right side shoulder helps if the hole is cut past the midpoint of the green on # 10

The photo below is not representative of any angle of attack from any portion of the fairway.
It's a photo taken from a vantage point to the right and above the putting surface.

Look at the back and back left portion of the green, then look at google earth and imagine approaching to that hole location from the left side of the fairway.  It's diabolical and will entice and crush the unwary.

The hole was cut in approximately the location shown in the photo on the first day.
The second day it was back right which made it difficult to approach from anywhere but the right side of the fairway.
My partner hit a great drive and really good second that ran up into the back right bunker, and, as Yogi said, "you can't get there from here"

The relationship of the tee, fairway, green elevations is also similar on both holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

One of the things I forgot to mention about # 10 and one of the things that contribute to my liking it so much is that the green sits up on the highest golf location on the property and is thus buffeted by the winds.

If you're into views, and I know that Tom Huckaby would be delighted, the views of the Shinnecock clubhouse and Peconic Bay are pretty impressive, as is the walk to the 11th tee.

The 10th hole at Sebonack is manageable by almost every level of golfer due to it's length, yet, it presents different challenges to every level of golfer, but, sooner or later, they all have to storm the castle like green perched high up on the ridge.

Perhaps that's why I like holes like # 6 at PD and # 8 at NGLA

[Carl Nichols]

Looks cool.  How long is it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Looks cool.  How long is it?

Carl,

It plays in the 388 to 340 range, but, yardage alone doesn't tell the story.
The site is swept by pretty good winds which really impact the play of the hole.

My guess is that the prevailing winds are primarily out of the west, southwest, south and north.
Tom Doak indicated that winds from the east are rare.
The hole plays from East to West, so the wind is rarely helping.

If I had my drothers, I'd prefer playing into a west or northwest wind as it would probably help my approach shot the most.

While an East wind would help the drive, it would make holding the green very difficult.

It's a fun hole, one you could play over and over and over again.

Diverse hole locations add tremendously to the method of play/approach.

It's a terrific hole if I haven't already said so.

[Will Lozier]

Patrick,

Just from pics, I would say that the similarities with PC #6 are in the visual from the tee and in the general presentation.  From experience, the fall-off on the right of the green and wind direction at PD dictates the play from the tee where as the pin placement (+wind) would likely dictate the play at Sabonack.  Again, without having played it, that is my impression.  The safe line left at the latter would seem to leave an easier approach than would a bailout left at PD where, one must play over maybe the most fierce bunker on property to a target that has VERY little depth from that angle and almost slopes away to the 15' shaved dropoff.  There is a HUGE advantage to playing right off the tee and more room it seems (although it is partially blind).  The front bunker at Sabonack doesn't look that penal and there seems to be a bit of a backboard back right?  It is a lovely looking hole and I am sure a devious little sucker with the wind whipping the greensite!  Thoughts?

Cheers

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Just from pics, I would say that the similarities with PC #6 are in the visual from the tee and in the general presentation.  From experience, the fall-off on the right of the green and wind direction at PD dictates the play from the tee where as the pin placement (+wind) would likely dictate the play at Sabonack. 

How can pin placement on # 10 at Sebonack dictate play from the tee if the golfer can't see where the pin is ?

Again, without having played it, that is my impression.  The safe line left at the latter would seem to leave an easier approach than would a bailout left at PD where, one must play over maybe the most fierce bunker on property to a target that has VERY little depth from that angle and almost slopes away to the 15' shaved dropoff. 

There is no easy shot from the left at Sebonack

There is a HUGE advantage to playing right off the tee and more room it seems (although it is partially blind). 

At PD or Sebonack ?


The front bunker at Sabonack doesn't look that penal and there seems to be a bit of a backboard back right? 

The front bunker at Sebonack is penal

It is a lovely looking hole and I am sure a devious little sucker with the wind whipping the greensite!  Thoughts?

It's a well designed hole that's fun to play, but, it can easily produce high numbers

Cheers

[Will Lozier]

Patrick,

Just from pics, I would say that the similarities with PC #6 are in the visual from the tee and in the general presentation.  From experience, the fall-off on the right of the green and wind direction at PD dictates the play from the tee where as the pin placement (+wind) would likely dictate the play at Sabonack.  

How can pin placement on # 10 at Sebonack dictate play from the tee if the golfer can't see where the pin is ?

I can see it in the photo from the tee, no?  

Again, without having played it, that is my impression.  The safe line left at the latter would seem to leave an easier approach than would a bailout left at PD where, one must play over maybe the most fierce bunker on property to a target that has VERY little depth from that angle and almost slopes away to the 15' shaved dropoff.  

There is no easy shot from the left at Sebonack

EasIER.  Compared to hitting into a green with no depth sloping almost away from you with a huge drop off beyond vs. having a bit of a backstop on the right (maybe having to ignore the pin) does seem easIER, no?

There is a HUGE advantage to playing right off the tee and more room it seems (although it is partially blind).  

At PD or Sebonack ?

At PD.  It seems to me - again with no rounds at Sabonack under my belt - that there is a definite advantage to coming in from the right at PD where at Sabonack, both sides seem to have their advantages.

The front bunker at Sabonack doesn't look that penal and there seems to be a bit of a backboard back right?

The front bunker at Sebonack is penal

It can't be as dangerous as the one at PD both in terms of a the probability of getting up and in and in terms of the likelihood of having a dead lie.

It is a lovely looking hole and I am sure a devious little sucker with the wind whipping the greensite!  Thoughts?

It's a well designed hole that's fun to play, but, it can easily produce high numbers

Looks like it and I can see similarities for sure.  Yet, I wonder how similar the strategies really are in playing each.

Cheers

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Just from pics, I would say that the similarities with PC #6 are in the visual from the tee and in the general presentation.  From experience, the fall-off on the right of the green and wind direction at PD dictates the play from the tee where as the pin placement (+wind) would likely dictate the play at Sabonack.  

How can pin placement on # 10 at Sebonack dictate play from the tee if the golfer can't see where the pin is ?

I can see it in the photo from the tee, no?  


OK, so tell me where the hole is located ?
Front, Middle, Back ?  Left or Right ?

Again, without having played it, that is my impression.  The safe line left at the latter would seem to leave an easier approach than would a bailout left at PD where, one must play over maybe the most fierce bunker on property to a target that has VERY little depth from that angle and almost slopes away to the 15' shaved dropoff.  

There is no easy shot from the left at Sebonack

EasIER.  Compared to hitting into a green with no depth sloping almost away from you with a huge drop off beyond vs. having a bit of a backstop on the right (maybe having to ignore the pin) does seem easIER, no?

I don't think so, especially given that the 6th at PD is 315 yards vs 380 at Sebonack, meaning that you're approaching the 10th at Sebonack with a longer club into a prevailing wind.

As to green depth, from the left side of the fairway, there isn't much.

There is a HUGE advantage to playing right off the tee and more room it seems (although it is partially blind).  

At PD or Sebonack ?

At PD.  It seems to me - again with no rounds at Sabonack under my belt - that there is a definite advantage to coming in from the right at PD where at Sabonack, both sides seem to have their advantages.

There is no advantage to coming in from the left at Sebonack.
I don't know how you drew that conclusion.

The front bunker at Sabonack doesn't look that penal and there seems to be a bit of a backboard back right?

The front bunker at Sebonack is penal

It can't be as dangerous as the one at PD both in terms of a the probability of getting up and in and in terms of the likelihood of having a dead lie.

It is as dangerous/difficult with respect to getting up and in.
But, I don't know what you're refering to when you cite a "dead lie" in the bunker.
Why would you have a "dead lie" in the bunker at PD, but not at Sebonack ?

It is a lovely looking hole and I am sure a devious little sucker with the wind whipping the greensite!  Thoughts?

It's a well designed hole that's fun to play, but, it can easily produce high numbers

Looks like it and I can see similarities for sure.  Yet, I wonder how similar the strategies really are in playing each.


Having played both, I found them very similar, that's why I created this thread.
Cheers

[Will Lozier]

Patrick,

Just from pics, I would say that the similarities with PC #6 are in the visual from the tee and in the general presentation.  From experience, the fall-off on the right of the green and wind direction at PD dictates the play from the tee where as the pin placement (+wind) would likely dictate the play at Sabonack.  

How can pin placement on # 10 at Sebonack dictate play from the tee if the golfer can't see where the pin is ?

I can see it in the photo from the tee, no?  

OK, so tell me where the hole is located ?
Front, Middle, Back ?  Left or Right ?

Looks like front right to me.

Again, without having played it, that is my impression.  The safe line left at the latter would seem to leave an easier approach than would a bailout left at PD where, one must play over maybe the most fierce bunker on property to a target that has VERY little depth from that angle and almost slopes away to the 15' shaved dropoff.  

There is no easy shot from the left at Sebonack

EasIER.  Compared to hitting into a green with no depth sloping almost away from you with a huge drop off beyond vs. having a bit of a backstop on the right (maybe having to ignore the pin) does seem easIER, no?

I don't think so, especially given that the 6th at PD is 315 yards vs 380 at Sebonack, meaning that you're approaching the 10th at Sebonack with a longer club into a prevailing wind.

As to green depth, from the left side of the fairway, there isn't much.

The approach at PD from the left INTO the wind is much easier than downwind where you can't really stop the ball from that angle and WILL find yourself in that deep chipping area beyond the putting surface...which is still MUCH better than being in the bunker.

And I would agree that the depth at Sabonack #10 looks minimal...but the surface doesn't seem to slope away nor have the same penalty for being long as does PD.  Of course, I concede you would be hitting a longer club on a lower trajectory.  You haven't addressed the fact that you have a bit of a backstop - or so it looks to me - on the right third?

There is a HUGE advantage to playing right off the tee and more room it seems (although it is partially blind).  

At PD or Sebonack ?

At PD.  It seems to me - again with no rounds at Sabonack under my belt - that there is a definite advantage to coming in from the right at PD where at Sabonack, both sides seem to have their advantages.

There is no advantage to coming in from the left at Sebonack.
I don't know how you drew that conclusion.

I am a math teacher...I am judging the angles that I see solely from pics.  And from the pics, I looks like the green at Sabonack is much more receptive to shots from the left than PD #6.  I am doing the best I can to draw conclusions from pics with no experience of playing the hole and that is what I see.

The front bunker at Sabonack doesn't look that penal and there seems to be a bit of a backboard back right?

The front bunker at Sebonack is penal

It can't be as dangerous as the one at PD both in terms of a the probability of getting up and in and in terms of the likelihood of having a dead lie.

It is as dangerous/difficult with respect to getting up and in.
But, I don't know what you're refering to when you cite a "dead lie" in the bunker.
Why would you have a "dead lie" in the bunker at PD, but not at Sebonack ?

What is so penal about leaving your approach short?  How many times have you played PD Patrick and how many times have you been in that left bunker on #6?  How did you make out from there...or from the chipping area?  There tends to be a lot of sand in those two bunkers on the left...one can be left with a very sketchy lie given the more rugged presentation at PD.  And, you are a good 25 feet below the putting surface which, again, slopes slightly away and is dead over.

It is a lovely looking hole and I am sure a devious little sucker with the wind whipping the greensite!  Thoughts?

It's a well designed hole that's fun to play, but, it can easily produce high numbers

I am sure it does not "suffer fools lightly"!

Looks like it and I can see similarities for sure.  Yet, I wonder how similar the strategies really are in playing each.

Having played both, I found them very similar, that's why I created this thread.
 
Obviously.  I am glad you did, I find it to be an interesting proposal.  As I've said to you before though, I find your unwillingness to consider other points of view a hindrance to quality debate.  I've admitted to never having played Sabonack before and realize I can offer only so much input.  But, I have seen PD MANY more times than you - golfing my own ball as well as guiding a great variety of players around as well - and I think you are choosing to ignore the fact that the fall off to the right of the green and the angle and orientation of the actual putting surface offers a much difference dilemma than what is on offer at #10 at Sabonack - as it appears to my eye.  

Cheers

[JWL]

Mr. Mucci,
I wanted to also weigh in briefly on the location of the 10th green.   It is indeed a location that affords some terrific views.
I thought you might be interested to know, if you don't already, that the location of the 10th green is quite near where the original preferred location of the clubhouse by Mr. Pascucci.   Later after the routing was changed and the clubhouse moved to its present location, Mr. Pascucci was planning on construcing a home on the Peconic Bay side of the landform that 10 green sits on.    That idea was later altered because he wanted the 16th hole to be longer and play into that landform, so the original 16th green was abandoned and the present 16th green constructed very near where the home was planned.
Glad that you enjoyed the course.   It is certainly one of my favorites, and I think time is going to be very good to the course.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

JWL,

What would be fascinating would be to see some of the alternate routings that didn't make the cut.

The 10th green site is quite stunning and I've always liked holes where the golfer must hit a shot into a protected, elevated green.

As to a home, I can't think of a better location, that's some site.

Ross tinkered/fine tuned with # 2 for 26 years and Macdonald tinkered/fine tuned NGLA for about 30 years.
I'm sure that Sebonack will undergo similar tinkering/fine tuning that will improve the golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Just from pics, I would say that the similarities with PC #6 are in the visual from the tee and in the general presentation.  From experience, the fall-off on the right of the green and wind direction at PD dictates the play from the tee where as the pin placement (+wind) would likely dictate the play at Sabonack.  

How can pin placement on # 10 at Sebonack dictate play from the tee if the golfer can't see where the pin is ?

I can see it in the photo from the tee, no?  

OK, so tell me where the hole is located ?
Front, Middle, Back ?  Left or Right ?

Looks like front right to me.

What would you be willing to bet that you can't determine hole location from the tee ?
I suspect that Brian's photo may have influenced your choice.

Again, without having played it, that is my impression.  The safe line left at the latter would seem to leave an easier approach than would a bailout left at PD where, one must play over maybe the most fierce bunker on property to a target that has VERY little depth from that angle and almost slopes away to the 15' shaved dropoff.  

There is no easy shot from the left at Sebonack

EasIER.  Compared to hitting into a green with no depth sloping almost away from you with a huge drop off beyond vs. having a bit of a backstop on the right (maybe having to ignore the pin) does seem easIER, no?

I don't think so, especially given that the 6th at PD is 315 yards vs 380 at Sebonack, meaning that you're approaching the 10th at Sebonack with a longer club into a prevailing wind.

As to green depth, from the left side of the fairway, there isn't much.

The approach at PD from the left INTO the wind is much easier than downwind where you can't really stop the ball from that angle and WILL find yourself in that deep chipping area beyond the putting surface...which is still MUCH better than being in the bunker.

At 315 yards, down hill, down wind, wouldn't you be chipping from a short distance ?
How difficult is that ?


And I would agree that the depth at Sabonack #10 looks minimal...but the surface doesn't seem to slope away nor have the same penalty for being long as does PD.  

The 10th green at Sebonack does run away from the tee and the penalty for being long is severe.


Of course, I concede you would be hitting a longer club on a lower trajectory.  You haven't addressed the fact that you have a bit of a backstop - or so it looks to me - on the right third?

There's a nasty bunker on the back right side that you aren't aware of

There is a HUGE advantage to playing right off the tee and more room it seems (although it is partially blind).  

At PD or Sebonack ?

At PD.  It seems to me - again with no rounds at Sabonack under my belt - that there is a definite advantage to coming in from the right at PD where at Sabonack, both sides seem to have their advantages.

There is no advantage to coming in from the left at Sebonack.
I don't know how you drew that conclusion.

I am a math teacher...I am judging the angles that I see solely from pics.  And from the pics, I looks like the green at Sabonack is much more receptive to shots from the left than PD #6.  I am doing the best I can to draw conclusions from pics with no experience of playing the hole and that is what I see.

That's the root of your problem, you have a very limited data base, represented solely by two or three pictures.

The front bunker at Sabonack doesn't look that penal and there seems to be a bit of a backboard back right?

The front bunker at Sebonack is penal

It can't be as dangerous as the one at PD both in terms of a the probability of getting up and in and in terms of the likelihood of having a dead lie.

It is as dangerous/difficult with respect to getting up and in.
But, I don't know what you're refering to when you cite a "dead lie" in the bunker.
Why would you have a "dead lie" in the bunker at PD, but not at Sebonack ?

What is so penal about leaving your approach short?

You're still left with a dicey recovery. 


How many times have you played PD Patrick and how many times have you been in that left bunker on #6?  

Four.  None.

How many times have you played Sebonack ?
How many times have you been in the front right bunker ?

I think my experienced base data is far more accurate than your partial experience and summary based on two or three photos.


How did you make out from there...or from the chipping area?


I parred the hole every time I played it.



There tends to be a lot of sand in those two bunkers on the left.

Are you saying that the bunker/s are poorly maintained ?

The golfer is allowed to take his stance, thus telling him the conditions of the sand in the bunker, prior to executing his shot


..one can be left with a very sketchy lie given the more rugged presentation at PD.  
And, you are a good 25 feet below the putting surface which, again, slopes slightly away and is dead over.

The left greenside bunker is also deep.
Unfortunately, you don't know that because of the angle by which the bunker is presented in the photo.

It is a lovely looking hole and I am sure a devious little sucker with the wind whipping the greensite!  Thoughts?

It's a well designed hole that's fun to play, but, it can easily produce high numbers

I am sure it does not "suffer fools lightly"!

Looks like it and I can see similarities for sure.  Yet, I wonder how similar the strategies really are in playing each.

Having played both, I found them very similar, that's why I created this thread.
 
Obviously.  I am glad you did, I find it to be an interesting proposal.  As I've said to you before though, I find your unwillingness to consider other points of view a hindrance to quality debate.  

Let me see if I understand this.
You've never set foot on Sebonack and you want me to accept your erroneous assessment of the hole, which you've based solely on two to three photos taken from a specific angle ?  Is that correct ?

Yours is a position of experience at PD and ignorance at Sebonack, and yet, you want to engage in a debate where you're telling me how the 10th hole at Sebonack plays, and taking me to task for not accepting your position.

I'm "hindering a quality debate" ?

You have absolutely no clue as to how # 10 plays, yet, you want me to accept your limited interpretation which is based solely upon two or three select photos ?

I feel sorry for your students


I've admitted to never having played Sabonack before and realize I can offer only so much input.

Then why are you telling me how the hole plays and that my opinions on the physical properties and of how the hole plays aren't valid in the face of your very limited photographic interpretations  


But, I have seen PD MANY more times than you - golfing my own ball as well as guiding a great variety of players around as well - and I think you are choosing to ignore the fact that the fall off to the right of the green and the angle and orientation of the actual putting surface offers a much difference dilemma than what is on offer at #10 at Sabonack - as it appears to my eye.  

"As it appears to your eye", based upon you NEVER having set foot on the property and based upon an extremely limited data base consisting of two to three photos taken from select angles.

Let's see if I can rephrase this.

I've played both courses a number of times.
You've played one course but have never played the other.
Yet, you want to insist that your opinion, absent personal golfing experience and any on site observations are the equal of mine, or anyone else's with the same fact base ?

Your opinions are the sole product of your interpretation of two or three photos taken from a specific angle, one of which bears no resemblance to any reasonable line of play.

Sounds to me like you're being a little pedantic.
 

Cheers

[Will Lozier]

Pat,

I said from the start I had never played Sabonack and yet tried to engage in a mature discussion knowing full well my observations and interpretations were limited.  Honestly, I chose to respond to offer my own significant experience with the architecture at Pacific Dunes, specifically the strategy in playing #6, and simply contrast what I "saw" - yes saw, not walked, not played - in those pictures and numerous looks at other pics and aerials.  I admitted that visually, the setup is very similar in some of it's angles, bunker placement and elevation profile - some might say that was your point.  I thought there was a major difference.  I simply offered that, in my experience, the most dominant strategic feature at PD #6 is missing at Sabonack #10 - the deepest and steepest shaved drop-off I've ever seen (save for maybe Deal's #6) along the entire right edge of the green - and that the greenside bunker at PD is more severe.  What I'll add is that those two main features determine the strategy, in my opinion, regardless of pin placement yet still dependent on the wind.  They work to make the hole as almost as treacherous as BT #14.  I never asked you to accept, but to consider, my (many times greater) experience with one hole.  Then I actually asked you to explain the similarities with the features I found to be unique.  I don't really know why you are so pissed off or why you feel the need to insult one's profession.  I am glad though that my students are more mature than you are. 

You tried to belittle others in this thread for faulting it based on the fact that it is meant to be exclusive of those with no access to many wonderful courses you are fortunate enough to play and I really didn't think that at all at the time.  But judging from your reaction - one that my students will laugh at hysterically when they read it and I tell them that you are not a teenager but an real living breathing adult - perhaps you don't want to have an honest debate of your thesis.  Maybe you do just want others who have played it to comment or, you want those who have not to come begging for your wisdom.  Your tone is strange.

Cheers

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I said from the start I had never played Sabonack and yet tried to engage in a mature discussion knowing full well my observations and interpretations were limited.  

Will, you didn't try to engage in mature discussion, you tried to tell me the degree of difficulty of approaching the green from the left, and the configuration and play from left greenside bunker based solely on a photo taken from far to the right of that bunker, a photo not representative of what the golfer faces from the left side of the fairway.   And, you kept insisting that your photo analysis was accurate, despite the fact that the photo isn't from the angle that a golfer driving left would find himself at.  You refused to accept the fact that my observations and representations were based on my personal experiences playing the course over the last few years with my most recent play being three consecutive days last weekend.  Is that what you call mature discussion, or being pedantic ?

Honestly, I chose to respond to offer my own significant experience with the architecture at Pacific Dunes, specifically the strategy in playing #6,

I NEVER questioned your assessment of the 6th at Pacific Dunes.

and simply contrast what I "saw" - yes saw, not walked, not played - in those pictures and numerous looks at other pics and aerials.
And, I told you, time and time again, that none of those pictures represented what the golfer would face from the left side of the fairway as he approached the green.  I told you that one the photos was from an angle completely alien to the play of the hole and that other photos were not from the far left side of the fairway and that what you saw of the left greenside bunker, taken from almost directly in front and/or to the right center of the fairway didn't depict the left greenside bunker as it confronts the golfer coming in from the left side of the fairway.  Yet, time and time again, you, who have absolutely no personal experience at Sebonack, tried to force your "will" upon us. (pun intended)

That may work with your students, who can't contradict you, but, it doesn't work when you're the one in the dark on an issue.
And, with respect to playing Sebonack, you're totally in the dark.  

I admitted that visually, the setup is very similar in some of it's angles, bunker placement and elevation profile - some might say that was your point.  

I thought there was a major difference.  I simply offered that, in my experience, the most dominant strategic feature at PD #6 is missing at Sabonack #10 - the deepest and steepest shaved drop-off I've ever seen (save for maybe Deal's #6) along the entire right edge of the green - and that the greenside bunker at PD is more severe.  

How would you know what's behind the 10th green at Sebonack or how steep the fall off is ?

And how would you know how severe the left greenside bunker is when there are no photos taken from an angle that would present the bunker from the left side ?

What I'll add is that those two main features determine the strategy, in my opinion, regardless of pin placement yet still dependent on the wind.  

Perhaps for you, but not for me.
The fall off from an elevated green on a hole 315 yards in length doesn't determine my strategy from the tee.
On # 10 at Sebonack, the direction and velocity of the wind is the primary determinate, since, ideally, I want to challenge the bunker and approach the green from the center or right side of the fairway.

The depth of the bunker is of little consequence when I'm hitting an L-Wedge, S-Wedge or Pitching Wedge, ditto the steep fall off.

They work to make the hole as almost as treacherous as BT #14.  I never asked you to accept, but to consider, my (many times greater) experience with one hole.

I accepted your experience with regard to the 6th hole at Pacific Dunes, why do you keep harping on an issue where I didn't contest your views on the 6th hole at PD.

What I didn't accept is your views on the play of the 10th hole at Sebonack, a hole you've never seen or played. 

Then I actually asked you to explain the similarities with the features I found to be unique.

I answered your questions, puzzled by the context by which you'd judge my comments about Sebonack. 

I don't really know why you are so pissed off or why you feel the need to insult one's profession. 

1.     I'm not pissed off
2.     I didn't insult your profession, a noble profession, I was insulting you.


 I am glad though that my students are more mature than you are. 

More mature ? Or forced to accept your views, lest their grades suffer ?

You tried to belittle others in this thread for faulting it based on the fact that it is meant to be exclusive of those with no access to many wonderful courses you are fortunate enough to play and I really didn't think that at all at the time.  

Mark Pearce and Mark Chaplin deserved to be belittled for their absurd position/s.
I created this thread because of similarities I perceived based upon recent play at Sebonack.
Others indicated that their remarks were out of line.
I'm still waiting for Mark Chaplin to send me the list of courses that fit the criteria he cited.
He's certainly had ample time to construct that list, but, has failed to produce it,
Why do you suppose that is ?.

But judging from your reaction - one that my students will laugh at hysterically when they read it

If they laugh, it won't be at me, and if it was, it would only be because you hold the power of their grades in your pedantic hand.
Given the opportunity to hear us both, to hear the absurdity of your position in a discussion with me, where I've played both holes numerous times and you've played one hole numerous times and the other hole.... NEVER, you'd be the one laughed at.

and I tell them that you are not a teenager but an real living breathing adult -


It's true, I"m a teenager at heart.
A juvenile delinquent trapped in an adult body.
My guess is that your students would love me as their guest lecturer.
What math do you teach and at what school ?
Algebra I ?  Algebra II, Geometry, Trigonometry, Calculus.
Give me a week to brush up.
I'd love to visit your class if I'm on the West coast.

perhaps you don't want to have an honest debate of your thesis.  

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

You want to engage me in an "honest debate" on the architectural similarities and play of the 6th hole at Pacific Dunes and the 10th hole at Sebonack, but, you've never seen or played the 10th hole at Sebonack ?

What's your definition of "honest debate"

And in what context would you judge my answers regarding Sebonack ?

I can see why you don't teach logic. 

Why not expand that ?  Let's have an honest debate comparing two holes that you've never played, but that I've played dozens of times.


Maybe you do just want others who have played it to comment or, you want those who have not to come begging for your wisdom.
When comparing the architectural similarities and play of two holes about 3,000 miles apart, I would think that a prudent prerequisite would be the experience of having played both holes.  Or at the very least having walked and analyzed both holes.

You made some critical/definitive statements about the 10th at Sebonack, but, you've never seen or played it, and you want me to accept your misguided interpretation, based solely on two or three photos, as the gospel.  And I can't do that, it would be intellectually dishonest of me.

You want me to accept your position as fact, and it isn't and I can't accept it, and you're the one getting bent out of shape.
Fortunately for me, I don't have to kowtow to you for a grade, but, if I was grading you on the 10th at Sebonack, out of kindness..... a "D".  

Your tone is strange.

That's because I have a head cold.
My tone should improve next week.

[Mark Hissey]

There are a few secret holes at Sebonack. My favorite is the one that plays from the 10th tee to the 2nd green. 

[Mark Hissey]

For the record, it is not that difficult to play Sebonack if you really want to.

Every year, the club gives five free outings to charities in the area. It's a great way to be a good neighbor, and it benefits some fantastic causes. Each of the charities price things their own way and have different demands. The fee is largely tax deductible too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

There are a few secret holes at Sebonack. My favorite is the one that plays from the 10th tee to the 2nd green.  

Mark,

That's got to be alot of fun.

Approaching # 2 green from the south or southeast has to be a real challenge.

How about back, from # 3 tee to either the 10th, 9th, 1st or 19thhole green ?

Out of curiosity, why was the 19th hole green softer and slower than the other 18 greens ?

[Mark Hissey]

There are a few secret holes at Sebonack. My favorite is the one that plays from the 10th tee to the 2nd green.  

Mark,

That's got to be alot of fun.

Approaching # 2 green from the south or southeast has to be a real challenge.

How about back, from # 3 tee to either the 10th, 9th, 1st or 19thhole green ?

Out of curiosity, why was the 19th hole green softer and slower than the other 18 greens ?

Ha! Did you steal my "Sebonack Secret Golf Course Routing" from my locker Pat?

Six tee to nine green is a favorite too. It's all fairway as well.

Garret our Super is fanatical about keeping our greens in great shape. He doesn't give 19 quite the same attention. It's a tough one to cut in some spots too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

The amount of turf under management has to be significantly more than most courses.

When you consider the double and triple fairways, it's quite impressive and a reasonable aid when the winds blow, like they did last Saturday.

You know the greens are firm when you drop a ball and you hear that unmistakeable sound.

It was alot of fun, challenging, but fun.

[Mark Hissey]

I'm glad you had a good time Pat. It was great seeing you. I wish I could have stayed for a drink.

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