[David Wigler]

Tom,

I meant none of this as disrespect to Michele.  From what the people I know told me, she acted with a ton of class and was a treat to watch.  She also is simply a better golfer than I am.  It was strictly meant to show the sillyness of the LPGA statistic that showed a person with a 148 ball speed hitting it 306.5 on average.

[John_Conley]

How does the match go...she beats me 4 and 3 but is at least ten yards behind me off every tee - same goes for Shivas!

Wiggles:

You don't make it anywhere near the 15th hole if you play like you did when we went out to Mystic Dunes.  Moreover, she's hits it by you on nearly every hole.  Her carry distance is 275 at sea level (saw that firsthand at Heathrow in the U.S. Open qualifier) and she'd probably translate to a +1 or +2 handicap for men.  (Just fired a 74 in a Canadian Tour event in the first round, beating half the field.  Shreds par on her good days from the Lady pro tees (men's tees).)

Shiv:

I don't know how far you hit it, but from the stories you recount I'm guessing you carry it as far as the upper half of Tour players.  I think 280 is about right for people on the long side of the median from observation.  If you stack up as a long Tour player, your carry may approach 290 or more.

Everyone arguing:  

No duh that 306.5 is not her carry at sea level.  It obviously involves some of the following factors.

* Elevated tees
* Playing at elevation
* Inclusion of roll on a fairway where you get some
* Wind-aided

Shiv:

She's not a fish story.  Everything you've heard about her is true.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Shivas -

Congrats on your 52 on Sat.  What Men's Club in Chicago?  I think my Uncle's a member there.

You proved yourself right as you were too tired to type.  I love the fact that you logged onto the site from your death bed.

Only 18 per day this weekend at a Willie Park, Jr.   Kids wanting to play with Dad and all that.  Kinda fun actually.

Club Championship this weekend - Match Play.  36-18-36.  Those #'s would bring a smile to my face.

KLP

[George Pazin]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone who's played casual golf with a pro comment on their length casually versus under competition? I have always assumed that pretty much all of them (except maybe JD) throttle back during competition, even if it's just a hair, to keep it under control better. I've hit my share of 300 yard drives, but I still figure that even Corey Pavin is longer than I'd think, if we teed it up at my local muni, which is as wide open as it gets.

[THuckaby2]

George:

I will say this:  I played with Pavin a LONG time ago (early 1981) and compared to everyone else there (my HS team, his college team-mates), he was plenty long.  It was a very casual event and he had no reason to hold back...

That's what has always made me believe that the pros can do whatever they want, depending on the situation.  Sure, Pavin seems to be Billy Barty-short compared to the really big bombers today, but compared to me, well... I just know I'd expect to hit first all day if I played with him today, as I did back then.  I've also played with Shivas and Wigler plenty enough and I'd guess if Pavin wanted to keep up with them he could... I could be wrong there, but anyway I believe your question is a good one!

TH

[John_Conley]

I guarantee Wie does not fly the ball 275 with a 148 ball speed.  It just can't happen.  Either her ball speed is higher or she doens't carry it that far, all things equal.      

Shiv:

I've never known anything about ball speed until it got some attention this summer.  I have no idea what her ball speed is.  Effortlessly, she hits it +30-40 past Paula Creamer and +60-70 past the other girl she was paired with at Heathrow - and I think she's a pro.

Wie hits it further than I do and much better.  I don't remember Wiggles being a longer hitter than I was last time we played.  If he was, it couldn't have been much.  Like you, I have good and bad hits so an average is much less than a good drive.  Wie probably has as little dispersion as anyone.  She hits it awfully clean.

Say her ball speed is higher.  Then she hits is 275 carry.  

[Steve Lang]

 

Anyway, she missed the cut and now must go back to 8th grade.. wait till she develops her short game!

I watched a relaxed Maggert once at the WCC Palmer Course range and then 1st tee.. he isn't "really long" ~285 ish officially but it sure was impressive..

Catch Wie & Daly together in upcoming made for TV trash match!

[TEPaul]

Do they hit it the same way in casual rounds as in competition? I think so. And probably the reason is their games and body rote is just so honed they don't want to get out of that.

For long ball hitters I've known probably the best for me to talk about would have to be Jay Sigel. Sigel's career as an amateur (until 50) has to be up there right behind Bob Jones!

He's a really big guy who could basically hit it by anyone if he wanted to and all with possibly the slowest backswing I've ever seen (he quickened it just a little since turning pro).

To show you how long he was I'd relate this Masters story he once related to a tournament field (Sigel played in more than eleven but he played in eleven STRAIGHT Masters). That's a ton for an amateur who had to earn his way in every year!

Anyway in one Masters Sigel was paired for two days with two of the longest pros of their time, Ballesteros and Norman. He said he'd never played with either before and was very interested to see where his length stacked up against theirs. He said to his surprise he hit it by both of them all day long for two days!

Sigel was and still is a very deliberate player and appears to never hit a shot until he's thought about everything there is to think about with that shot.

The times I played against him he appeared to hit it anywhere from 40 to about 75yds or more past me if I hit it well. But the really impressive thing was every now and then, generally on par 5 tees his swing would get even slower, wider and longer and he'd reach back and nail one maybe 25-30 yds longer than all the rest of the long ones he'd hit. That's a particular talent I really think is something!

[David Wigler]

John,

I watched her as well.  She shot 79 in the second round.  She is a good golfer and might become a great golfer.  She would beat me, although I doubt by much more than 4&3.  As for the driving distance, it is simple physics.  My ball speed is 16mph more than hers on average, therefore I will hit it between 10 - 20 yards longer.  She absolutely does not carry a ball 275.  It is pure fiction.

[TEPaul]

I followed Wie at Philly C.C. for nine holes and even on a driving stat hole with no wind (#10). On that hole (the course was very wet) she hit a good drive that carried about 250. All her long shots on that nine were very impressive though particularly how high she hits it including her driver.

During that day however, a friend of mine, who's a very fine player around here and used to be a professional long driver said he noticed another young lady who appeared to hit it much father than Wie. I can't remember her name now but if I find the program I'll tell you who she was--she had a Spanish sounding name.

[John_Conley]

Dave:

Her club sequence at Heathrow matched that of long amateurs from our area.  D-9 on the 425 yard 14th, up around the green in two on the 520 yard 11th.  Fairways were wet; no roll.

It was the only time I saw her, but nothing she did made it seem like the other tales I've heard weren't legit.

As for her only being an okay golfer, she regularly shoots in the 60s from men's (ladies' tournament) tees.  Sometimes as low as 66 or 67.  That's where I get a +2 for her on a men's handicap system.  (79 on a course probably rated 74 gets tossed out.  I didn't check, but she may have a dot or two.)

"She is a good golfer..."  C'mon Dave.  If she's good, what does it take for a female to be great?  She's an incredible golfer, as evidenced by her win at the USAPL, Top 10 in a Major, and Top 3 finish in the medal portion of the Am.  I'm pretty sure she beats any 13-year-old boy you can find.

[David Wigler]

Dave:

Her club sequence at Heathrow matched that of long amateurs from our area.  D-9 on the 425 yard 14th, up around the green in two on the 520 yard 11th.  Fairways were wet; no roll.

It was the only time I saw her, but nothing she did made it seem like the other tales I've heard weren't legit.

As for her only being an okay golfer, she regularly shoots in the 60s from men's (ladies' tournament) tees.  Sometimes as low as 66 or 67.  That's where I get a +2 for her on a men's handicap system.  (79 on a course probably rated 74 gets tossed out.  I didn't check, but she may have a dot or two.)

"She is a good golfer..."  C'mon Dave.  If she's good, what does it take for a female to be great?  She's an incredible golfer, as evidenced by her win at the USAPL, Top 10 in a Major, and Top 3 finish in the medal portion of the Am.  I'm pretty sure she beats any 13-year-old boy you can find.

John,

A bunch of points above.  A 148 swing speed is a 260 - 275 golfer.  That is very long by women's standards but not for men.  It is consistent with D-9 on 425.  I am not claiming she is short.  She does not hit it 306.5 nor does she hit it past Shivas or me - Again it is simple math.

I did not say she was OK, I said she was good.  You mention the good, how about the bad.  She lost in the US women's Am and the US Junior Women's Am.  Again, John, she is a talented player but I would take the top rated 13 year old boy straight up.  I think it is more an indictment of the LPGA, than a statement of her talent that a 13 year old can be competative.

[John_Conley]

Shiv:

D-9 with no roll on a 425 is about 280 + 135 or so.  I play with guys who are carrying 9 irons 160 with the new bent-down lofts, but her irons didn't seem to rocket.  Maybe that means lower swing speed on the irons.  She showed exceptional distance control.  In fact, that's the aspect of her game that was most impressive.  You don't have to hit it dead-on to be close if you're able to dial in the distance.

As for your continued untested theories about money attracting the better "athletes" (which you believe solely means size), did you check a gander of the guys at the U.S. Am?  I'm still waiting for these big guys you talk about to show up.  And, yes, Tim Clark is beating Brent Schwarzrock most weeks.

Your basketball analogy about Bob Cousy fails to take into account that the things that separated him from the rest in his prime would still work today.  He displayed excellent court vision and an excellent feel for the game.  He could just as easily have grown up today and learned more modern ball handling techniques (read: flashier dribbling) and become John Stockton.  Looking at the rest of the positions on a basketball court, the increase of about 2 inches or so mirrors the general population.  Also, as I've stated before, there is a TREMENDOUS advantage to being tall in basketball, where you want to be close to the basket.  Not so in golf, where you want to be close to the ball.

I still contend that there are people who are just better athletes (which I contend includes coordination and timing as well as size and strength) that will always excel.  When Jose Juan Barea makes the NBA, which I predicted over a year ago, I'll be LMAO at guys like you that think he's "just lucky to be there".  Believe me, I heard that argument all the time about Scotty Brooks.  No, Scotty Brooks was in the NBA for as long as he was because he was BETTER than everyone who wasn't.

Show me the tall golfers that excel and I'll change my story.  You still are clinging to an unconfirmed theory.

[John_Conley]

Shiv:

I acknowledge that Michelle Wie has an advantage in hitting the ball far, but does she have any advantage in playing golf over Aree Wongluekiet?  The two have careers that seem to mirror each other, albeit with a four year lag.

Women's golf is easier to make by a factor of 20 compared to men.  Michelle Wie would be the best player her age if she were 5'6".

Media hype has her playing with the boys, beating the men, and competing in the Masters.  Not going to happen, as she doesn't physically project up like a 13-year-old boy does.  I doubt she ever hits it much further than she does today.

I didn't say there won't be any tall golfers.  Just remember that - for your theory to hold water - the U.S. Am and similar events will be teeming with 6' girls because they have an advantage over the little Leadbetter pixies I see all the time.  (Aree, Naree, Maru, Julieta, Paula, etc...)

[John_Conley]

Shiv:

I could be wrong.  However, I'm content to go with the "approval" of two of the tall golfers I know.  One has won multiple time on Tour and the other made cuts out there back in his day.  Both say they never felt an advantage in golf, with one caveat...  It is easier to see the hole without a tended flag on long putts.

Many people share your view and spout out that you'll have to be big to play the Tour as though it is fact.  Hardly fact.  In reality, speculation with not much to fuel it.  I'm still waiting to see the abundance of tall golfers at any level.

[CHrisB]

This is an interesting discussion, but gee whiz, after reading the back-and-forth between Shivas and John I have now developed the image of Cameron Diaz and Freddie Prinze, Jr., arguing about women's golf and men's basketball, and I'm having trouble getting rid of it. (Help me.)

[TEPaul]

"great Dad (HE started talking to my wife as we walked along with them)."

redanman:

I guess you didn't realize that doing something like that could've got you (and your wife) thrown in the penitentary at Far Hills NJ for at least a year. Talking to the competitors or their caddies at the Women's US Amateur was strictly verboten!

The reason I know that is I was following the Wie/Martinez match and on hole #14 Mr Wie planted Michelle's bag directly in Martinez's line to the green about 50 yds ahead of Martinez as she attempted to come out of the rough. Neither Martinez nor her Dad caddie said anything but on the way up to the green I was walking along side Mr Wie and I asked him if he was aware Michelle's bag was right in Martinez's line and all and that that probably wasn't the best thing to have happen. He said he didn't notice or wasn't thinking about that or something so that was the end of my conversation with Mr Wie.

At that point a couple of marshals in USGA garb came up to me and said under no circumstances was anyone allowed to talk to the players or their caddies.

At which point I said to that lady; "Did you or the officials here happen to notice what Mr Wie did with that bag?" They  said they did. So I asked them if they were out there to observe potential problems like that and help the competitors not have problems or were they there just to watch problems occur and then figure out what to do about it? Of course they looked at me like I just arrived from the moon. And I said it's not like Michelle and her Dad have knowingly or unknowingly not already had a highly publicized occurence such as this (Ammanacapane) and is that something they'd prefer to have happen again.

Obviously the idea of having a rules official actually help competitors avoid problems within the structure of the rules must have  been a very foreign concept to them.

But I feel very fortunate to be able to go to Scotland and England in a few days instead of spending the next year or so in the USGA penitentary at Far Hills NJ for speaking to a competitor's caddie.  

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