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Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2013, 02:17:12 AM »
Bump

Sheehy and I will be playing a match there in 7 days time.  I thnk we should be told.  ;)
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2013, 08:24:12 AM »
A return visit for a 36 hole match yesterday prompts a  few thoughts.

1
Fine club with welcoming member’s.  Sean’s report is great but doesn’t really do the beauty of the place justice. Some very fine views there in an area looks to have a suburban feel.

2
Having just played the Addington again, the comparisons are striking.  Anyone but Abercromby might well have avoided some of those climbs, but the result is he certainly produced his fair share of memorable holes. If you love the Addingotn (who doesn’t?) I feel you will also love a game here.

3
Sean is a little harsh on holes 9. 10 and 11. The first is a par 5 here the interest comes from the bunkering – a little unusual for Abercormby – with two to challenge your drive and one in the fairway right where a second shot might land.

4
I am a fan of his 90 degree dogleg 10th at The Addington and he has two of them here. The 4th is distinguished by it’s landform with a tee up high and then playing through a natural valley.  It plays R-L. The 11th offers the reverse challenge.  Mybe not  a really great hole but you have to place your drive well and being able to hit a fade L-R helps too. Are there sharp doglegs to be found on his other courses?

5
The greens were just fast enough to cause nervousness.  The 13th being particularly hard to read, but overall they are a pretty subtle an interesting lot.

6
…and another thing.

The 13th has a very cool thing going on.  Off the green tees it’s certainly not drivable. So as you stand looking up at for your second shot, what appears to be the front of the green is actually 25 yards short. The ground dips slightly from there before rising to the green again.  Subtle visual deception at it’s finest.



6
After 36 holes I was pleased to retire to my bed! I will return every chance I get.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 09:39:01 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2013, 04:43:47 AM »
Spangles

I bet you were tired after walking 36 round Knole Park!

You like the 11th?  Even as one who can often hit a sharp slice on demand - I didn't care for the hole.  It really stands out as something different from the other holes. 10 too is very odd. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 06:49:35 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2017, 05:03:55 AM »
Sean, all... I've just been searching for some Tom Simpson quotes for Niall on the camouflage thread and found a lovely essay entitled "Mad Masterpieces - Knole Park Golf Course No.6" in which he describes that although Aber designed the original course, he was called in 15 years later to make alterations, of which the entire 6th hole is one (i.e. his)... He provides a great plan sketch and he relishes in the what he calls the usual outcry from members of "where have you ever seen such a hole?!"... I've never played the course and this is the first time I've seen pictures - looks highly inviting...

Bumping this thread to the top as having played the course at the weekend in the Jim Goaby Memorial Quaich, it has  left a lasting impression. I've put some additional pictures of the course on that thread, which can be found here...(Reply 271)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64000.0.html

I was especially taken with the 6th hole, which Ally describes above. I've added my photo of the hole below (taken from in front of the tees) and an aerial to demonstrate the strategy. For its time it must indeed have been a 'mad masterpiece.' Now, we look at it and applaud the brilliant, lie of the land strategy. Everything good about golf design encapsulated in one hole. Nice work, J.F!

We'd still like to see the original sketch Ally!





« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:44:59 AM by Robin_Hiseman »
2024: Royal St. David's; Mill Ride; Milford; Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2017, 05:53:51 AM »
Hi Robin,


I can't even remember where I saw that essay but will search it out... I think I was saying that it was Tom Simpson himself who designed the 6th hole, not Aber.


Still haven't seen the course. Still want to.


Ally

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2017, 07:42:23 AM »
That can be arranged Ally.

The 1940 aerial below shows that the club has added back tees which change the line of tee shot markedly. I can't recall which one we played from. Also, lots of fairway bunkers back then which have been grassed in and evidence of several fresh bomb craters.

Considering that Hitler planned to use Knole House as his UK headquarters you would think he'd have asked the Luftwaffe to be a bit more careful about bombing his garden!


2024: Royal St. David's; Mill Ride; Milford; Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2017, 09:37:40 AM »
Jeepers...what a looker.  The club does a great job of showcasing the nature of the property with cool interior views and plenty of vegetation on display.  One really gets a sense of the land when playing Knole Park. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2017, 12:08:27 PM »
Bump


another great tour Sean!


Knole Park,Canterbury, Addington or RAF?


Quick trip to Kent next week playing all the usual suspects-looking for somewhere to play a late afternoon round(after a morning round at Deal) en route to Gatwick for early flight the next day.


All four look relatively easily combined with a trip towards Gatwick area.


Leaning towards Knole Park but like the idea of Canterbury(proximity to Kent) as Knole Park or the other two can picked up more easily on another trip to London/Gatwick.
Knole Park look a tough walk at the end of a trip with a 36 hole day also.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2017, 12:48:37 PM »
I don't have the diagram handy [and would not know how to post it anyway], but that phalanx of bunkers and the split fairway calls to mind the drawing that Simpson submitted for the Lido competition, that Macdonald et al. used as the basis for the 15th hole at Lido.  It's been a while since I looked at the drawing so I can't remember whether the bunkering on the approach was similar or different, but the tee shot is quite similar.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2017, 01:48:58 PM »
Bump


another great tour Sean!


Knole Park,Canterbury, Addington or RAF?


Quick trip to Kent next week playing all the usual suspects-looking for somewhere to play a late afternoon round(after a morning round at Deal) en route to Gatwick for early flight the next day.


All four look relatively easily combined with a trip towards Gatwick area.


Leaning towards Knole Park but like the idea of Canterbury(proximity to Kent) as Knole Park or the other two can picked up more easily on another trip to London/Gatwick.
Knole Park look a tough walk at the end of a trip with a 36 hole day also.
Jeff - I highly recommend Knole Park over Canterbury... at least two letter grades better... both in course and experience.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2017, 02:20:35 PM »
Jeff - I highly recommend Knole Park over Canterbury... at least two letter grades better... both in course and experience.

I second Mike's recommendation.

Just inside the entry to the men's locker room is the original drawing for the course over the signature block of Fowler, Croome, Simpson and Abercromby. The Secretary told me that Lord Sackville and the members received two plans - one from the Fowler team, the other from James Braid. The members favored the Braid plan but were overruled partly because Braid's plan required more tree removal - an important factor to Sackville. The Braid plan was generally counterclockwise around the property - the reverse of the Fowler/Aber team's. If anyone visits the club, please try to take a photo of the drawing. I'd planned to do that before I left the UK but ran out of time.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2017, 05:17:57 AM »
Bump


another great tour Sean!


Knole Park,Canterbury, Addington or RAF?


Quick trip to Kent next week playing all the usual suspects-looking for somewhere to play a late afternoon round(after a morning round at Deal) en route to Gatwick for early flight the next day.


All four look relatively easily combined with a trip towards Gatwick area.


Leaning towards Knole Park but like the idea of Canterbury(proximity to Kent) as Knole Park or the other two can picked up more easily on another trip to London/Gatwick.
Knole Park look a tough walk at the end of a trip with a 36 hole day also.
Jeff - I highly recommend Knole Park over Canterbury... at least two letter grades better... both in course and experience.
Agreed but the Addington takes it a notch higher still.
Let's make GCA grate again!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2017, 10:12:48 AM »
Bump


another great tour Sean!


Knole Park,Canterbury, Addington or RAF?


Quick trip to Kent next week playing all the usual suspects-looking for somewhere to play a late afternoon round(after a morning round at Deal) en route to Gatwick for early flight the next day.


All four look relatively easily combined with a trip towards Gatwick area.


Leaning towards Knole Park but like the idea of Canterbury(proximity to Kent) as Knole Park or the other two can picked up more easily on another trip to London/Gatwick.
Knole Park look a tough walk at the end of a trip with a 36 hole day also.
Jeff - I highly recommend Knole Park over Canterbury... at least two letter grades better... both in course and experience.
Agreed but the Addington takes it a notch higher still.


Thanks for all the great advice.
Multiple rounds at Deal may preclude a round or two.
After a round and lunch at RSG, an afternoon round at Walmer and Kingsdown or Northforeland?
Staying in Deal.
Leaning towards W&K based slightly on location..looks like my kind've place as well


Doesn't have to be architectural genius, just a fun afternoon round
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2017, 10:34:26 AM »
Bump


another great tour Sean!


Knole Park,Canterbury, Addington or RAF?


Quick trip to Kent next week playing all the usual suspects-looking for somewhere to play a late afternoon round(after a morning round at Deal) en route to Gatwick for early flight the next day.


All four look relatively easily combined with a trip towards Gatwick area.


Leaning towards Knole Park but like the idea of Canterbury(proximity to Kent) as Knole Park or the other two can picked up more easily on another trip to London/Gatwick.
Knole Park look a tough walk at the end of a trip with a 36 hole day also.


I would avoid Canterbury. Addington is the best of the 4, but you may head into traffic crap going that way. I think you would prefer RAF over MP.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2017, 07:39:50 PM »
Jeff when are you in town? Maybe we can have a beer or dinner.
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2018, 11:22:42 AM »
Knole Park has invested in many new back and forward tees throughout and new bunkering on the 10th.  Perhaps more importantly, I really like the cleared rough on the upslope of 15.  Anyway, I came away a bit more impressed than on my previous visit...though I am still unclear as to the best way to play #6  8)   See the updated tour.

www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53010.0.html

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2018, 07:06:53 AM »
Sean


I have news about the curious wart-like humps littered all around the course.


They are (according to the National Trust) anthills.


Ants
[/size]The hilly central area of the park is mostly acidic grassland. The Common bent grass Agrostis capillaris dominates the turf. There’s also Sheep’s Fescue Festuca ovina, Sheep’s-Sorrel Rumex acetosella and Sweet Vernal-Grass Anthoxanthum odoratum, among others.[/color]
[/size]The sward (a large area of short grass) is dotted with hundreds of anthills. These were made by the intrepid Yellow Meadow Ant. Each hill contains between 8,000 and 14,000 ants. This species of ant have been residents at Knole for centuries and these “ant villages” are park institutions.[/color]
2024: Royal St. David's; Mill Ride; Milford; Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2018, 07:24:29 AM »
Sean


I have news about the curious wart-like humps littered all around the course.


They are (according to the National Trust) anthills.


Ants
The hilly central area of the park is mostly acidic grassland. The Common bent grass Agrostis capillaris dominates the turf. There’s also Sheep’s Fescue Festuca ovina, Sheep’s-Sorrel Rumex acetosella and Sweet Vernal-Grass Anthoxanthum odoratum, among others.
The sward (a large area of short grass) is dotted with hundreds of anthills. These were made by the intrepid Yellow Meadow Ant. Each hill contains between 8,000 and 14,000 ants. This species of ant have been residents at Knole for centuries and these “ant villages” are park institutions.


good gracious
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2018, 04:03:45 AM »
Sean

I have news about the curious wart-like humps littered all around the course.

They are (according to the National Trust) anthills.

Ants
The hilly central area of the park is mostly acidic grassland. The Common bent grass Agrostis capillaris dominates the turf. There’s also Sheep’s Fescue Festuca ovina, Sheep’s-Sorrel Rumex acetosella and Sweet Vernal-Grass Anthoxanthum odoratum, among others.
The sward (a large area of short grass) is dotted with hundreds of anthills. These were made by the intrepid Yellow Meadow Ant. Each hill contains between 8,000 and 14,000 ants. This species of ant have been residents at Knole for centuries and these “ant villages” are park institutions.

Doc

Thats quite interesting.  Presumably the club had to clear ant hills when the fairways were prepared.  Do you think some fairways or parts of were routed to avoid anthills?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2018, 04:33:20 AM »
Sean

I have news about the curious wart-like humps littered all around the course.

They are (according to the National Trust) anthills.

Ants
The hilly central area of the park is mostly acidic grassland. The Common bent grass Agrostis capillaris dominates the turf. There’s also Sheep’s Fescue Festuca ovina, Sheep’s-Sorrel Rumex acetosella and Sweet Vernal-Grass Anthoxanthum odoratum, among others.
The sward (a large area of short grass) is dotted with hundreds of anthills. These were made by the intrepid Yellow Meadow Ant. Each hill contains between 8,000 and 14,000 ants. This species of ant have been residents at Knole for centuries and these “ant villages” are park institutions.

Doc

Thats quite interesting.  Presumably the club had to clear ant hills when the fairways were prepared.  Do you think some fairways or parts of were routed to avoid anthills?

Ciao


How could you possibly tell at this distance?
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2018, 10:05:26 AM »
Personally, I doubt it. I didn't sense any unnatural diversions.
2024: Royal St. David's; Mill Ride; Milford; Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC New
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2018, 01:22:13 PM »
Personally, I doubt it. I didn't sense any unnatural diversions.

Do you know what prompted the 4th being changed into the awkward hole it is?  This is the one hole which doesn't make sense to me in terms of the routing or how it plays.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 02:04:12 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Adam Uttley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2018, 02:12:39 PM »
I was briefly a member at Knole Park when I lived in Kent and have a copy of "The Story of Knole Park" which was written in 1989 by a former captain, David Boe.  It answers a few of the questions raised in this thread, although not for everything.  From what I can glean:

James Braid was asked to prepare a preliminary survey before the members broke away from Wildernesse.  It was in September 1923 that Lord Sackville, who owned Knole Park agreed to allow a golf course to be built.  In a Special General Meeting held in October 1923, where they agreed to break away, it was mentioned that Braid had consulted on the feasibility of a course on the land.  Abercromby was consulted for a second opinion a month or so later.  Of the two plans, the owner of property, Lord Sackville, favoured Braid’s because it called for the felling of fewer trees (not the other way round).  It is not clear why Abercromby’s was chosen.

here is no mention of the clubhouse being by proposed as being near the 5th tee.  Abercromby’s routing started from the present 1st and was provided to the club in December 1923.  There is an inference that the other routing (Braid’s) is reported to have started in the same spot and was the reverse of the Abercromby version.  It was always part of the plan for Lord Sackville to build the clubhouse and rent it to the club.

Regarding the opening match, George Peacock was the first professional at the club and Andrew Peacock, also a professional, who played in the first match was his brother.  Dan Peploe was a scratch golfer and head of the greens committee when the course was built.

The 4th tee was originally on the ledge below the 3rd green (on the left).  The drive for the 4th was over the hillside called Spion Kop and was a very long carry over bracken.  Instead, many, especially the ladies, ended up playing back down the 3rd fairway first, before turning the corner so they decided to build the new tee where it is today.

Although Abercromby laid it out as a Par 72 (6 of each), in the early years it was wet and so the 3rd, 18th, 6th and 14th were, briefly, par 5s as the course played so long.  This was changed back to a Par 72 over time and remained that way until 1965.  Contrary to Abercromby’s routing, the original 18th tee was almost as far back as the 2nd green with stray balls being hit directly over the 17th green.  This was when it was a Par 5 but it was shortened soon after opening, and reverted to a Par 4, for safety reasons.

The 15th green was originally on the ledge below the current green before being moved back in 1965 by 30 yards to its present, blind, location.  This was in order to add length in order to make it a Par 70 as the English Golf Union rated it a 69 under their new rules at the time.  New tees were also added at 7, 10, 13 and 16 for the same reason.

There is no mention of any changes to 6th or of Tom Simpson.  However, around the time of the war, and c15 years after the club opened, G Simpson was secretary at the club.

I hope that helps fill in some blanks.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 05:41:15 PM by Adam Uttley »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2018, 06:45:26 AM »
Adam

Thanks for your post.  It is especially enlightening about the 15th.  The hole does look "wrong" now and I bet tons of people play to the old green either by mistake or necessity.

Its also interesting that Aber laid out the course as 6/6/6!

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aber's KNOLE PARK GC
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2018, 08:36:13 AM »
Wonderful stuff Sean. I think I must have been asleep when this thread was top of the charts previously as I can't recall seeing it. A couple of belated comments;

I note the plan at the top of the thread has a sketch of a green that looks very much like it was Simpsons handiwork. Does that maybe mean that the layout as shown was Simpsons revised course ?

Secondly with regards the wonderful looking 6th hole, (I imagine) you almost need to see it on plan or in an aerial to make sense of it. Presumably the photos were taken from the raised tees on higher ground ?

With reference to the proposed Embo development I was going to comment on the Embo thread about the shape of some of the proposed holes with their split fairways offset from each other, and say that is something you don't really see on classic layouts but perhaps this hole proves the lie to that assertion.

Niall

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