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ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« on: July 26, 2012, 04:19:48 PM »
I include a link of the video of the roll out of the fairway rolling machines Merion's super requested for the Open next year.

Is this cricket? What does this say about the state of the game. USGA sanctions this kind of conditioning? Maintanence issues?

What thinkest thou o treehouse?

http://www.salsco.com/products/videos/merion-golf-club-pa-takes-delivery-of-their-2-new-tranz-former-rollers.html
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 04:39:35 PM »
Good Lord, now I have seen everything.

Seriously does anyone else think this is going overboard?? Is their intent to squeeze every drop of mositure out of the course?? Can you Shinny an entire fairway and green complex??

Have to go look at the rating manual to see how you treat and rate a fairway with the roll of I 95. Guess bringing a cigar onto the property is a fire risk.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 04:42:02 PM »
Do those machines do anything else?

I certainly couldn't hit and stay in the first fairway in the video (2?) with that width/slope/firmness
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 04:54:58 PM »
They also had them at Olympic this year, same machine. In the Philly area where the temps hae been brutal, they can be used to remove dew off the surface, minimizing disease. A lot of green programs are built on rolling only when the temps get VERY hot. Leaving more leave blade helps the turf get through the day better.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 05:20:07 PM »
I've seen rolling machines used on greens here in the area, but the ones I've seen are cool looking deals where the operator stands and whips back and forth across the green. Those machines I've seen are much smaller than the ones in this video.

Couple of questions for you Mr. Nysse:
1) The website indicates that the machines can be used on fairways and greens; does there need to be a different setting (similar to a mower) for green rolling as opposed to fairway rolling? It looked as if the guys on this video were only doing the fairways.

2) Is rolling -- for either fwys or greens -- in addition to or as an alternative to mowing? If it's an alternative, you've given us what appears to be one advantage to rolling (leaving more blade leading to stronger turf in adverse conditions), what are the downsides of rolling vs. cutting, if any?

3) Assuming that time spent by grounds crews is something of paramount importance, is rolling quicker or slower than cutting?

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 05:22:59 PM »
Not sure on fairways but we have been able to skip some mowing through use of rollers.  No increase in compaction either.

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2012, 05:25:08 PM »
Good Lord, now I have seen everything.

Seriously does anyone else think this is going overboard?? Is their intent to squeeze every drop of mositure out of the course?? Can you Shinny an entire fairway and green complex??

Have to go look at the rating manual to see how you treat and rate a fairway with the roll of I 95. Guess bringing a cigar onto the property is a fire risk.

You know what's overboard... that you, me, and dozens of others just spent 6+ minutes watching two guys NOT mow grass.  No wonder my wife and kids think i'm nuts.

WW

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2012, 05:51:17 PM »
I am a huge fan of rolling greens on cool season grasses in what little research I've done.  Anthony is spot on.  It helps a turf system remain a bit more resilient while achieving the speeds that a mowing would. 

But if a course is rolling fairways to increase roll, increase resiliency, maintain verdure, and reduce clipping yield; then maybe they need to reexamine their cultural practices.  It seems like a crutch for grass kept at fairway height.  It should be healthy.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 07:13:05 PM »
RAWHIDE!!!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 09:17:19 PM »
Once again we can see the extent to which clubs will throw money toward the sisyphean (and I want to emphasize that descriptor!) pursuit of agronomic perfection.
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 09:35:34 PM »
Joe is the winner!!!!

Tryin to come see you in sept
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Chris Tritabaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 10:05:33 PM »
As a superintendent I have no problem with this. I think rolling is great and if there is a machine out there which can make it a reality than I am all for it.

Ben,
I don't believe the benefits of rolling fairways is over the top because the turf is a great HOC and thus healthier. I also do not believe rolling will make up for poor turf management. We mow fairways twice a week, if we had a roller like this we would use it on days we did not mow to remove dew and create a truer surface. The benefits in my mind would be the same as rolling a green.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 10:15:32 PM »
Not surprising. Here's one in use at the Lambton Golf and Country Club, Toronto, circa 1903...



...and it wasn't alone:


« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 10:18:54 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 10:35:10 PM »
As a superintendent I have no problem with this. I think rolling is great and if there is a machine out there which can make it a reality than I am all for it.

Ben,
I don't believe the benefits of rolling fairways is over the top because the turf is a great HOC and thus healthier. I also do not believe rolling will make up for poor turf management. We mow fairways twice a week, if we had a roller like this we would use it on days we did not mow to remove dew and create a truer surface. The benefits in my mind would be the same as rolling a green.

Chris,

I don't disagree with your post.  I only argue that turf that would need or require to have mowing reduced to increase health--and hence this rolling system to make up for reduced mowing for playability's sake--is probably babied and a weak turf system to begin.  Irrigation reduction, inputs reduction, I like these concepts. 

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 10:52:30 PM »
There's nothing weak about Merions turf on their fairways. Theyre doing something to help make them firm and fast for a US Open, as they should. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 11:24:37 PM »
Chris & Ian,

Any studies on the long term effects ?

What additional HOC do/can you get by going to these rollers ?

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2012, 01:29:16 AM »
Ben, pretty sure Merion has a handle on how to grow healthy turf.

Just sayin'.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2012, 06:01:45 AM »
Without excessive rain, Matt and his crew will have that track in all-world presentation condition...of that you can be sure. Should really be an epic week if mother nature behaves. Pre-event planning for the GCA festivities is WELL under way! Stay tuned.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2012, 06:10:46 AM »
I'm amazed at the level of course maintenance in the US. Very impressed that often the quality of the fairways are as good or better than a lot of the greens in Europe and I don't think that's an exaggeration at all. What stimp do the fairways at Merion roll?

Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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www.lockharttravelclub.com

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2012, 07:58:55 AM »
Love the orange color - matches the wicker baskets on the front nine :)

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2012, 08:36:36 AM »
Clint,

Look, if you want to be condescending, I understand.  In an age where everyone--and I mean everyone--pays lip service to buzzwords without truly changing the paradigm, many big name golf clubs are at the heart of the problem.  If Merion's super came out and said that the reasons for purchasing these rollers was related to managing turf playability while reducing stress (i.e., mowing/increase in HOC) and turf input, then I'd be all about it.  My fear is that their mowing frequencies and inputs won't change a bit, and the rollers are just additional expense and turf impact.  Merion will be fine, obviously.  But right or wrong, courses follow the lead of the the big dogs.

I'm no expert obviously.  But I have seen enough to form a viable opinion.  All of these advances exist that are tools in the fight for efficiency.  My experience has been that the advances are bought and paid for, without refining practices in other areas.  That leads to a culture of more.  I don't feel like I am doing the right thing by being impressed by rollers on the fairway, if the rollers aren't being used to reduce mx practices elsewhere. 

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2012, 09:28:26 AM »
Fairway rolling in our area is directly related to all the cries for "fast and firm" on a daily basis, and of course the mythical ground game, no matter what the weather conditions.
 
Last month I spent three days with Gordon Muir, the links manage at St Andrews, playing golf in Philly and discussing maintenance practices. He basically said he doesn’t have to think about “fast and firm” since conditions like that occur naturally. They get around 22 inches of rain annually on sandy, fast draining  soils while here in Philly we get 45 inches annually on heavy clay slow draining soils. They also have wind daily while wind is a non factor most days in Philly. I would guess that is why even the golden age courses in this area were designed for more of an aerial approach.
Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

John Shimony

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2012, 09:49:11 AM »
John, your last post is the most clear and concise explanation of the differences between links golf and northeast US inland golf conditions I have read. 
John Shimony
Philadelphia, PA

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2012, 10:03:36 AM »
Josh and John

Is it about approximating links golf or just plain making it stupid hard?

Does it turn Merion into a virtual golf course when overarching conditioning is added just so balls won't stay on a sloped surface? So they groom it to roll balls into rough and hazards but at the expense of eliminating "hanging" or difficult lies that require finesse as opposed to brute force gouging balls out of rough. Firm and fast is one thing but bowling alleys belong under roof.

 Seems like another price we are paying for the advances in technology and not healthy to me.
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2012, 12:35:24 PM »
Clint,

Look, if you want to be condescending, I understand.  In an age where everyone--and I mean everyone--pays lip service to buzzwords without truly changing the paradigm, many big name golf clubs are at the heart of the problem.  If Merion's super came out and said that the reasons for purchasing these rollers was related to managing turf playability while reducing stress (i.e., mowing/increase in HOC) and turf input, then I'd be all about it.  My fear is that their mowing frequencies and inputs won't change a bit, and the rollers are just additional expense and turf impact.  Merion will be fine, obviously.  But right or wrong, courses follow the lead of the the big dogs.

I'm no expert obviously.  But I have seen enough to form a viable opinion.  All of these advances exist that are tools in the fight for efficiency.  My experience has been that the advances are bought and paid for, without refining practices in other areas.  That leads to a culture of more.  I don't feel like I am doing the right thing by being impressed by rollers on the fairway, if the rollers aren't being used to reduce mx practices elsewhere. 

I'd rather be called condesending than be the one calling out Matt Shaffer on using "crutches" to maintain his turf.  I also don't know your turf experience nor do I know how often you play Merion.  So I'll withhold my judgement. 

I'm tired of the excuse that other courses look up to the "big boys".  That's akin to a mom and pop shop buying a corporate jet just because they see Tim Cook flying around in Apple's.  If your club board is too dumb to realize that perhaps Merion's budget is just a little bigger and their turf team's experience is just a little deeper, that's not Merion's fault.  Merion is just trying to prepare for what will be the most hyper analyzed US Open in recent history.  I highly doubt Matt and Co. are doing this because they forgot where to turn the water off, but instead this is the most efficient way to prepare their golf course for the conditions they want to present next year.

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