[Stephen Davis]

Stephen,

I think you will find a few people across the pond that think what we have done with the game here in the states is bad for the game. That discussion has been raging since the beginning of the 20th century. One of our first sins was soft greens sloping back to front. There there is trees, and so on and so forth.

Perhaps you can remind your pro friend that until he goes to play at the origins of the game, he might not have the fullest understanding of the game.

Although I have not played it, it seems to me from what I have read that Eugene CC is not helping particularly with the game. Chandler Egan routed the course so that you hit from perfect lies (ball on tee) over ponds, something the average guy is reasonably capable of doing. RTJ reversed it so that you had to hit from less than perfect lies over ponds, something the average guy has difficulty with. Therefore, it just seems to me that the direction Eugene Country Club has taken is bad for the game, because it discourages new players from continuing the game. It may be a great place to play for the Gray Grieves of the world, but it is a degradation for those of us without his game.

I agree with the first part. This is exactly what drew me towards Bandon in the first place. I felt like I had entered a place that was designed to bring the golfer back to the roots of the game. As far as Eugene CC, I cannot comment. Like I said, I have never heard anything but high praise for the course, so I have to imagine it is a wonderful course. In fact, your post is the first negative comment I have heard the course receive. My post was not about comparing the Bandon courses to other courses, but my difficulty in seeing things from the perspective of this pro. However, considering I have never been a tournament player and never will be, it is a hard perspective for me to appreciate.

[Garland Bayley]

Stick around here Stephen and you will read negative comments on Augusta National along the lines of RTJ degraded it from what Alister MacKenzie created.

[Jud_T]

Bandon is the best golf resort on the planet.  It is less expensive than Pebble, Pinehurst, Whistling Straights or a guaranteed time on the Old Course.  There is no other single location that offers 4 1/2 courses of similar quality in the world.  That to me represents value...

[Brent Hutto]

And hey, that course at Cypress Point, what about that 18th hole? Man, what a letdown!

You'll find every form of "criticism" imaginable here on Golf Critique Atlas.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I see Bandon as good for the game.  It makes a splash.  They are the right courses for the right place.

I understand the point that for everyday play, they may fit into the "hard golf" theory that many say is driving people away from the game.  If courses of the Bandon level difficulty were typical of everday courses (and in some cases, we all believe the CCFAD model has too many of those) in every locale in America, the difficulty of the design would probably impede golf's growth.  But, you go to golf resorts to get something you don't see every day on  your typical rotation of courses, no?

It's not a question of good or bad, its a question of perhaps the market being saturated with high end resorts.  But, its dog eat dog and Bandon has simply and rightfully diminished some other courses reps and biz.

[William_G]

Stephen,

I think you will find a few people across the pond that think what we have done with the game here in the states is bad for the game. That discussion has been raging since the beginning of the 20th century. One of our first sins was soft greens sloping back to front. There there is trees, and so on and so forth.

Perhaps you can remind your pro friend that until he goes to play at the origins of the game, he might not have the fullest understanding of the game.

Although I have not played it, it seems to me from what I have read that Eugene CC is not helping particularly with the game. Chandler Egan routed the course so that you hit from perfect lies (ball on tee) over ponds, something the average guy is reasonably capable of doing. RTJ reversed it so that you had to hit from less than perfect lies over ponds, something the average guy has difficulty with. Therefore, it just seems to me that the direction Eugene Country Club has taken is bad for the game, because it discourages new players from continuing the game. It may be a great place to play for the Gray Grieves of the world, but it is a degradation for those of us without his game.

I agree with the first part. This is exactly what drew me towards Bandon in the first place. I felt like I had entered a place that was designed to bring the golfer back to the roots of the game. As far as Eugene CC, I cannot comment. Like I said, I have never heard anything but high praise for the course, so I have to imagine it is a wonderful course. In fact, your post is the first negative comment I have heard the course receive. My post was not about comparing the Bandon courses to other courses, but my difficulty in seeing things from the perspective of this pro. However, considering I have never been a tournament player and never will be, it is a hard perspective for me to appreciate.

Stephen,

hahaha, IMO opinions about a course are best reserved until after playing it.

I hear lots of positive comments about Eugene Country Club while it is of course not perfect, and most folks are not going to tell you something negative in person. And based on the pretty full tee sheet throughout the week, I think all members of the family enjoy the course.

Look forward to meeting you and teeing it up.

[Stephen Davis]

Stephen,

I think you will find a few people across the pond that think what we have done with the game here in the states is bad for the game. That discussion has been raging since the beginning of the 20th century. One of our first sins was soft greens sloping back to front. There there is trees, and so on and so forth.

Perhaps you can remind your pro friend that until he goes to play at the origins of the game, he might not have the fullest understanding of the game.

Although I have not played it, it seems to me from what I have read that Eugene CC is not helping particularly with the game. Chandler Egan routed the course so that you hit from perfect lies (ball on tee) over ponds, something the average guy is reasonably capable of doing. RTJ reversed it so that you had to hit from less than perfect lies over ponds, something the average guy has difficulty with. Therefore, it just seems to me that the direction Eugene Country Club has taken is bad for the game, because it discourages new players from continuing the game. It may be a great place to play for the Gray Grieves of the world, but it is a degradation for those of us without his game.

I agree with the first part. This is exactly what drew me towards Bandon in the first place. I felt like I had entered a place that was designed to bring the golfer back to the roots of the game. As far as Eugene CC, I cannot comment. Like I said, I have never heard anything but high praise for the course, so I have to imagine it is a wonderful course. In fact, your post is the first negative comment I have heard the course receive. My post was not about comparing the Bandon courses to other courses, but my difficulty in seeing things from the perspective of this pro. However, considering I have never been a tournament player and never will be, it is a hard perspective for me to appreciate.

Stephen,

hahaha, IMO opinions about a course are best reserved until after playing it.

I hear lots of positive comments about Eugene Country Club while it is of course not perfect, and most folks are not going to tell you something negative in person. And based on the pretty full tee sheet throughout the week, I think all members of the family enjoy the course.

Look forward to meeting you and teeing it up.

William, I definitely agree about not forming opinions until one plays a course. I too look forward to meeting you!

[Garland Bayley]

Stephen,

hahaha, IMO opinions about a course are best reserved until after playing it.

Do you have a time machine so I can go back and play it before the RTJ remodel?

[William_G]

Stephen,

hahaha, IMO opinions about a course are best reserved until after playing it.

Do you have a time machine so I can go back and play it before the RTJ remodel?

actually during our club's cenntennial celebration in 1999, our superintendent set-up the course with the Egan design for a weekend, in that we played the holes backward from green to tee, so we played it the way it used to be, almost

no one at our club thinks the course was better before RTJ Sr. redid it, but that's another topic, and I will post something on that later

[Tom Yost]

If you ask me, what's bad for the game is the embrace of pro tournament golf as some sort of gold standard.

[Garland Bayley]

actually during our club's cenntennial celebration in 1999, our superintendent set-up the course with the Egan design for a weekend, in that we played the holes backward from green to tee, so we played it the way it used to be, almost

no one at our club thinks the course was better before RTJ Sr. redid it, but that's another topic, and I will post something on that later

It doesn't surprise me that the people at the course think it is better after RTJ. You'd probably have to ask those not at the course to get a contrary opinion.

[Pete_Pittock]

Questions I don't know the answers to.
What other US resorts are walking only.l 
Do golfers from Scotland, Ireland, etc. make the trip to Bandon? How many?
Do some habitual cart riders start to walk some/all of their rounds of golf after experiencing Bandon?
Any yeses to the above make it good for th game.

Questions I'm pretty sure I know the answer to.
Have other golf courses been built to feed off the resort?
Has BDR helped the local economy both in revenue and jobs?
Has caddying been enhanced?
Have caddies from BDR earned Evans Scholarships, and is the Evans Foundation starting its first chapter house in the PNW?

[Mike Hendren]

Again we see the weakness of the Robo-Golfer.  Many of today's younger professionals and collegiate amateurs are trained from an early age.  As such, they miss the wonderful stage of development of one's game where improvisation is a necessity and it is a struggle merely to get the ball airborne with some regularity.  I was taught by my dad to chip with every iron in the bag, getting the ball rolling as soon as possible and greens in regulation meant absolutely  nothing to me, even after I became a decent player.  

We should not lambast Stephen's professional - we should pity him.

Bogey

[John Kavanaugh]

As an example of how Bandon has been bad for the game I will offer this example of bad architecture.  Come on people, let Chicago be Chicago.  Can you imagine how great Lady Gaga could have been if the market didn't force her to copy Madonna?  The critical acclaim Bandon has received handcuffs the creativity of secondary efforts.

[Garland Bayley]

John,

Some of the denser of us (me) have trouble understanding how that picture relates to Bandon.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Some of the denser of us (me) have trouble understanding how that picture relates to Bandon.

It is a poor copy of Bandon forced onto the land.  Could the backdrop of midwestern limber against coastal dunes look any more awkward? 

[Jud_T]

John,

It is a sign of a lesser architect chasing the current fad.  He's only handcuffed by his lack of imagination and talent, and perhaps the land and client he chose to work with.  If I'm going to be handcuffed, I prefer mediocre faux links to narrow tree-lined corridors and faux championship penal architecture.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

It is a sign of a lesser architect chasing the current fad.  He's only handcuffed by his lack of imagination and talent.  And if I'm going to be handcuffed, I prefer mediocre faux links to narrow tree-lined corridors and faux championship penal architecture.

Funny you say that because yesterday I passed on playing a faux links (Cambridge) in favor of a tree lined penal course (Rolling Hills). Any decent club is close on the day after a holiday.

I understand that the "critics" hate http://www.sahalee.com/ because it doesn't look like Bandon, but really, what does it harm to retain regional character now and then?

[Eric Smith]

Who cares about the trees...I think it's a gorgeous hole and would be tickled pink to come upon it in Anywhere, USA. From the picture the hole does appear to be rather penal, so I looked it up - plays all of 155 from the tips. I doubt you really think this is an example of bad architecture. Maybe unpopular treehouse architecture?

[Mac Plumart]

Eric...

I'm with you.  If that hole is an example of Bandon being bad for the game...I hope Bandon ruins the game as we know it.

That hole looks pretty darn good!!

[Stephen Davis]

Put me in the group that likes this hole quite a bit. So much of art is imitation, at least they are imitating the right thing

[Michael George]

John:

I don't know how you fault Bandon for poor imitations.  Do you fault Augusta National for the stupid course in Texas that tried to copy its holes?  I realize you may just be acting as contrarian and appreciate you trying to bring up this side of the issue, but come on.

Honestly, there are some dumb threads on this site - mostly started by me    But I think this one takes the cake.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I think the treehouse loves that hole.  Hell, the treehouse loves Chicago Highlands.  Me personally, I love Chicago and would like to play a Chicago course when I visit.

I don't blame Bandon for poor imitations anymore than I blame In-N-Out for the Six Dollar Burger.

[William_G]

I like that picture of Chicago Highlands

[John Kavanaugh]

I like that picture of Chicago Highlands

That is not a picture of Chicago Highlands http://chicagohighlands.com/ it is a picture from the Highlands of Elgin.  Really!?!

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