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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2012, 05:57:24 PM »
Sean, if you can separate the two, more power to you. But for me, Augusta National is as inaccessible as it is alluring. In a vacuum we can look at a course as a separate entity from its policies, greens fees, pace of play, etc. But in real life, all those things matter... a lot.
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2012, 06:35:15 PM »
Sean, if you can separate the two, more power to you. But for me, Augusta National is as inaccessible as it is alluring. In a vacuum we can look at a course as a separate entity from its policies, greens fees, pace of play, etc. But in real life, all those things matter... a lot.

Jason

Since you brought up Augusta, how is the course bad for golf?  How is the club bad for golf? 

I suspect you will fall back on perceptions and how these effect public opinion - though I hope you don't becasue once we start making judgements based on that sort of thing any conclusion can be justified. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2012, 06:36:29 PM »
I love Bandon as much as the next guy.

But to me, the prices have made this heaven on earth beyond the reach of people that work for a living like me.

If you want to see how much prices have risen, check out the 1999 prices listed here: http://web.archive.org/web/19991005102031/http://bandondunesgolf.com/teeoff-time.htm

Or - to make it easier:
1999 Green Fees:
May through October...................$100
November through April.................$75
Oregon Residents Nov-April............$35
Second Round Season....................$50
Second Round Off-season..............$35

2002:
June - Sept
Hotel Guest $160
Other   $200
Replay   $80

2007:
May-October
Hotel Guest   $195
Oregonian   $250
Others   $250
Replay   $100


Today:
May-October
Hotel Guest   $230
Oregonian   Special rate discontinued
Others   $275
Replay   $85

Obviously, the folks at Bandon are there to make a profit.  I fully support that.

But are these increases "good for the game"?  Selfishly (because I really want to go back) the answer is 'No' for me.

While these increases may not be good for the game, the prices reflect the quality of golf. The courses are Bandon are the lowest priced, public courses on Golfweeks' top 100 modern:

1. Sand Hills Golf Club 9.27

(1, p) Mullen, Neb.

1995, Bill Coore, Ben Crenshaw


2. Pacific Dunes 9.10

(2, r) Bandon, Ore.

2001, Tom Doak


3. Old Macdonald 8.66

(3, r) Bandon, Ore.

2010, Tom Doak, Jim Urbina


4. Whistling Straits (Straits) 8.61

(4, r) Kohler, Wis.

1997, Pete Dye


5. Friarís Head 8.47

(5, p) Baiting Hollow, N.Y.

2003, Bill Coore, Ben Crenshaw


6. Ballyneal 8.39

(6, p) Holyoke, Colo.

2006, Tom Doak


7. Bandon Dunes 8.31

(7, r) Bandon, Ore.

1999, David McLay Kidd


8. Sebonack Golf Club 8.26

(8, p) Southampton, N.Y.

2006, Tom Doak, Jack Nicklaus


9. Pete Dye Golf Club 8.21

(10, p) Bridgeport, W.Va.

1994, Pete Dye


10. Shadow Creek Golf Club 8.12

(11, r) North Las Vegas, Nev.

1990, Tom Fazio

So when you compare the green fees of Bandon to the greens fees of Whistling Straits and Shadow Creek (The Ocean Course at Kiawah. no. 19), Bandon is lower. Another reason the green fees have gone up since 1999 is that they priced the course low when it opened. Who would have gone to play one course, Bandon Dunes, for $200?

I still think Bandon is great in the off season. A friend of mine played last week at Bandon and he said the weather in May is the same as the weather in February as it was cloudy, cold and rainy. I went to Bandon back in 2000 in August and then have returned only in February.


Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2012, 06:48:18 PM »
Did everyone miss this assertion?

"Think Faldo or Hogan versus Freddie Couples or Bubba Watson, this fellow is firmly in the former camp."

As I recall, Faldo and Hogan own British Open titles, while Fred and Bubba do not. I think that Faldo and Hogan, two of the great major champions, could play the feel fame as well or better than Fred and Bubba.

In fact, is Fred really a "feel" player? He doesn't demonstrate anything close to the shot disparity that Bubba does. Fred plays as down the middle on the green a game as anyone.

Perception and reality are different actors.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2012, 07:10:25 PM »
Sean, if you can separate the two, more power to you. But for me, Augusta National is as inaccessible as it is alluring. In a vacuum we can look at a course as a separate entity from its policies, greens fees, pace of play, etc. But in real life, all those things matter... a lot.

Jason

Since you brought up Augusta, how is the course bad for golf?  How is the club bad for golf? 

I suspect you will fall back on perceptions and how these effect public opinion - though I hope you don't becasue once we start making judgements based on that sort of thing any conclusion can be justified. 

Ciao

I don't see it as good or bad for the game. I was simply making the point that I don't think we can separate golf courses from their methods of operation.

The US still has courses that do not allow black members. Regardless of their architecture, these courses damage the game by aligning it with bigoted ideals.

Bandon gives countless lovers of the game an opportunity to play it in a spectacular setting regardless of class or connections. We can't just ignore the fact that Bandon is open to the public when discussing its overall impact on the game, positively or negatively. Or at least I can't. Again, if someone else can, I give them credit. But to most, policies of a course matter a great deal.
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2012, 08:35:29 PM »
I love Bandon as much as the next guy.

But to me, the prices have made this heaven on earth beyond the reach of people that work for a living like me.

If you want to see how much prices have risen, check out the 1999 prices listed here: http://web.archive.org/web/19991005102031/http://bandondunesgolf.com/teeoff-time.htm

Or - to make it easier:
1999 Green Fees:
May through October...................$100

November through April.................$75
Oregon Residents Nov-April............$35
Second Round Season....................$50
Second Round Off-season..............$35

2002:
June - Sept
Hotel Guest $160
Other   $200
Replay   $80

2007:
May-October
Hotel Guest   $195
Oregonian   $250
Others   $250
Replay   $100


Today:
May-October
Hotel Guest   $230
Oregonian   Special rate discontinued
Others   $275
Replay   $85

Obviously, the folks at Bandon are there to make a profit.  I fully support that.

But are these increases "good for the game"?  Selfishly (because I really want to go back) the answer is 'No' for me.

Dan,

I agree.  I once started a thread on here asking if Bandon was effectively private because the only people who could afford tongo there were likely the people who had clubs in their hometown.  Bandon being their national club they go to once a year.

I was skewered for that thread because people on this site are incapable of thinking critically about Bandon.  
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 05:17:16 PM by JC Jones »
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2012, 08:41:19 PM »
Bandon is democratic, small "d", but one needs to have some money to afford the experience. That makes some sense given the remote location and given the amazing quality of the courses, but people will still bitch that the perfect place has flaws. Human nature.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2012, 09:14:53 PM »
[
The US still has courses that do not allow black members. Regardless of their architecture, these courses damage the game by aligning it with bigoted ideals.

Jason,

Glen Head and Morris County were courses for women only.

How did these courses damage the game ?


But to most, policies of a course matter a great deal.

To whom ?

A private club is free to establish their policies, written or implied.
What difference do their policies make to me or to anyone else ?


Brent Hutto

Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2012, 09:15:24 PM »
Did everyone miss this assertion?

"Think Faldo or Hogan versus Freddie Couples or Bubba Watson, this fellow is firmly in the former camp."

As I recall, Faldo and Hogan own British Open titles, while Fred and Bubba do not. I think that Faldo and Hogan, two of the great major champions, could play the feel fame as well or better than Fred and Bubba.

In fact, is Fred really a "feel" player? He doesn't demonstrate anything close to the shot disparity that Bubba does. Fred plays as down the middle on the green a game as anyone.

Perception and reality are different actors.

I don't think either type of player has an advantage in the Open Championship over a career. I was referring to players who valued thorough preparation versus those who prefer to "wing it". I don't think either Faldo or Hogan would have been comfortable playing in an Open that began 72 hours after setting foot on a links course for the first time ever. OTOH, I think Bubba might be willing to give it a go.

Brent Hutto

Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2012, 09:20:01 PM »
I know people who have made a once-in-a-lifetime trip to Bandon whose golf budget couldn't possibly support dues at a decent private club. Same for making a one-time pilgrimage to Pebble Beach or The Old Course. I have the impression Bandon gets plenty of traffic from golfers who dream of playing there for years and then save up a couple grand to spend a few days there with a foursome of their buddies also on "dream" trips.

There aren't many golf experiences that are unaffordable if planned years in advance, managed with due regard for budget and treated as a one-off splurge. Conversely country-club membership in most parts of the USA are expensive up front, each year and forever.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2012, 09:29:33 PM »
The consumer, retail golfer has voted with his wallet.  Bandon Dunes is a huge success, whether the players are GCA geeks or not.

Since its much closer to the affluent NE golfers, I see Streamsong as potentially as big a success. 

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2012, 10:14:19 PM »
Great for the game!  Oh and at least he picked the better courses in Oregon to like. Otherwise what an idiot thing to say. He must be an oregon duck
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 10:16:42 PM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2012, 10:22:08 PM »
Hahaha, glad you are well Tiger.

Bandon (all courses) are GOOD, for the game, silly question.

Many pros are NOT good for the game.

As Patrick Mucci stated, the variablity of play at Bandon is what makes it interesting.

At Bandon, you really will be playing a different course every day you tee it up, it's never the same!

Courses like Eugene Country Club are great in their own way, you just don't have the variabilty on a daily basis.

It's all about the golf!

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2012, 10:44:44 PM »
[
The US still has courses that do not allow black members. Regardless of their architecture, these courses damage the game by aligning it with bigoted ideals.

Jason,

Glen Head and Morris County were courses for women only.

How did these courses damage the game ?

Pat, you need to reread what I've written. I'm okay with gender differences at clubs. I have no problem with Augusta not having a female member, and I have no problem with women's only clubs. It's not really any of my business what any club does, but I do find it unfortunate that clubs still discriminate on a basis of race. I think it reflects poorly on the game, and many others share that sentiment. It's our prerogative to do so just as it's the course's prerogative to set their own policies.

Unlike some people who disagree with certain club policies, I still don't believe it's any club's duty to acquiesce to what I'd desire.

Quote
But to most, policies of a course matter a great deal.

To whom ?

A private club is free to establish their policies, written or implied.
What difference do their policies make to me or to anyone else ?


Again, you're correct. But this thread isn't about making clubs happy. It's about whether or not Bandon is good for the game. I believe their status as a public complex allows them to do more good for the game by reaching a wider group of players and introducing them to the game in a unique form.

There's room in the world for publics and privates, and many private clubs do great things for the game too. Many others probably negatively affect the game of golf, but as you say, their obligation is to their members first and not to the game overall. I don't put the interest of one over the other, except with regards to the question posed at the beginning of this thread.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 11:31:30 PM by Jason Thurman »
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2012, 10:56:27 PM »
I love Bandon as much as the next guy.

But to me, the prices have made this heaven on earth beyond the reach of people that work for a living like me.

If you want to see how much prices have risen, check out the 1999 prices listed here: http://web.archive.org/web/19991005102031/http://bandondunesgolf.com/teeoff-time.htm

Or - to make it easier:
1999 Green Fees:
May through October...................$100
November through April.................$75
Oregon Residents Nov-April............$35
Second Round Season....................$50
Second Round Off-season..............$35

2002:
June - Sept
Hotel Guest $160
Other   $200
Replay   $80

2007:
May-October
Hotel Guest   $195
Oregonian   $250
Others   $250
Replay   $100


Today:
May-October
Hotel Guest   $230
Oregonian   Special rate discontinued
Others   $275
Replay   $85

Obviously, the folks at Bandon are there to make a profit.  I fully support that.

But are these increases "good for the game"?  Selfishly (because I really want to go back) the answer is 'No' for me.
For comparison purposes only,and not to fuel any fire, gasoline was $1.02 a gallon in 1998
A

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2012, 11:19:45 PM »
Why does your pro bother to play golf at all?  He should just paint some small circles on the driving range and have at it.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2012, 11:21:06 PM »
Pete, hahaha

Lawsonia Links, Green Lake WI

May -June 8th  $45 twilight $25 walking

June 8th -Sept 3rd M-Th $59 walking  F-Sun $90  twilight $35

after Sept 3rd... M-Th $45  walking  F-Sun $90  twilight $35

Great Course!
It's all about the golf!

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2012, 11:42:50 PM »
I love Bandon as much as the next guy.

But to me, the prices have made this heaven on earth beyond the reach of people that work for a living like me.

Dan,

I agree with you - the prices are high enough to stop me enjoying the golf there to the fullest but in terms of being good for the game - surely a golf development that makes a profit is good for the game.  It is a hard thing to do and Mike Keiser sets a great example to other would be developers.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2012, 11:54:40 PM »
I guess we are now on a new subject "price vs enjoyment?" LOL.

Is she worth it?
It's all about the golf!

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2012, 12:21:51 AM »
William I figured you catch that one. cheers Tiger

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2012, 12:54:44 AM »
Is it not true that the prices at Bandon aren't so much required to support the operation but limit the popularity?

I played Karsten Creek in Stillwater a couple of times last year thanks to some volunteering I did. 

Their green fee is $300 in a town where the other public course costs ~$30.

I wondered why, and was told that it opened at $75 and the course had "too much" play.  Then it was $150, without solving the problem.  Now it's $300, and I think the unaccompanied guest problem is under control.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2012, 08:26:22 PM »
Recently, Pastor Charles Worley shared his thoughts on how to "get rid of" gay Americans: lock them inside an electrified fence until they die out because "they can't reproduce." I don't see any sane individuals genuinely debating whether the guy had a point just as these views should be thrown out as nonsense - also his premise had nothing with the cost of golf there, it was to do with these "new types of courses".

I don't get all of this good for the game, bad for the game stuff. What does bad for the game actually mean?? "John Daly is bad for the game", "Augusta is bad for the game" etc etc The game is the game. I don't mean to seem belligerent but this really does seem to be debating for the sake of debating. (No offence Stephen and see you at the 5th Major!)
Haha! None taken. I was just sharing my encounter with him and I thought it was interesting because 1) I had never met someone with this opinion and 2) because he was so passionate about it.

-Stephen

I can't wait for the 5th Major and am excited to be playing some more of "those kinds" of courses.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2012, 09:37:26 AM »
Great for the game!  Oh and at least he picked the better courses in Oregon to like. Otherwise what an idiot thing to say. He must be an oregon duck

I laughed out loud at this one. Touche' Tiger.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2012, 09:54:04 AM »
Stephen,

I think you will find a few people across the pond that think what we have done with the game here in the states is bad for the game. That discussion has been raging since the beginning of the 20th century. One of our first sins was soft greens sloping back to front. There there is trees, and so on and so forth.

Perhaps you can remind your pro friend that until he goes to play at the origins of the game, he might not have the fullest understanding of the game.

Although I have not played it, it seems to me from what I have read that Eugene CC is not helping particularly with the game. Chandler Egan routed the course so that you hit from perfect lies (ball on tee) over ponds, something the average guy is reasonably capable of doing. RTJ reversed it so that you had to hit from less than perfect lies over ponds, something the average guy has difficulty with. Therefore, it just seems to me that the direction Eugene Country Club has taken is bad for the game, because it discourages new players from continuing the game. It may be a great place to play for the Gray Grieves of the world, but it is a degradation for those of us without his game.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon- Good or Bad for the Game?
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2012, 11:15:41 AM »
Bandon was for me an amazing 1 time life and golfing experience.  It was difficult, if not impossible for me to play there to me my east coast abilities, but would never trade it the experience for anything. I have never payed up that much to ever play.  However Bandon actually surpasses its hype. In light of that, the travel expense, food, lodging & paying up was not a problem (1 time).

Unique singular experiences should not be confused with the variety of which the game is played world wide.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

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