[Brad Klein]

Anthony, there's no such temporal disclaimer or any other as you claim on Colt and Alison credits in the 1993 edition of "The Architects of Golf." In fact, Colt is given solo credit for CC Detroit and the two are accorded co-credit for Milwaukee CC and Orchard Lake - check out pages 190, 225, 479 (which credits them both for CCD), 543 and 555. Nor is the matter subject to any qualifier in the first edition of that book, "The Golf Course," 1981, 1987.

[Phil Young]

Brad and Anthony,

This will either explain who is the architect or provide a means for further debate on how to interpret what phrases in board minutes actually mean.

I did a comprehensive course evolution history report for Orchard Lake. During my researches there I located all of the original board minutes. This is a direct quote from the minutes of the May/26/1927 initial stockholders meeting: "The said drive over a route shown approximately on the framework plan of the golf course prepared for the said club by Captain C.H. Alison of Colt and Alison…”

Colt never set foot on the property nor are there any documents which indicate that he was involved in the property in even the slightest way. Therefor I would conclude that it is a solo Alison design...

 

[JC Jones]

I'd be shocked to look at this list a year from now and not see Orchard Lake CC on classic top 200 list

Ben,

It currently resides at No. 152, I think that is a fairly safe bet!!

TK

You can add reading ability to spelling and communication skills as the list of things not needed by those with vision and common sense.

[BCowan]

I'd be shocked to look at this list a year from now and not see Orchard Lake CC on classic top 200 list

Ben,

It currently resides at No. 152, I think that is a fairly safe bet!!

TK

You can add reading ability to spelling and communication skills as the list of things not needed by those with vision and common sense.

JC,

    Seriously, can you get a life? 

[Garland Bayley]

H Chandler Egan on Eugene Country Club? Really? Clearly an RTJ. The course Egan designed is history.
Was Egan even alive in 1967?

[Anthony Gholz]

Brad:

"Nearly all the courses built by the firm of Colt and Alison in the 1920s and '30s were designed by Alison."   This from C&W 1993, p190.  In Ron's defense that was 22 years ago. Subsequent research by numerous individuals have confirmed Colt's last visit to the US was in April of 1914.  He was back in England by May 18th arriving in Liverpool from Montreal.

Then England got involved in a war.

Alison started the US office (of Colt Mackenzie & Alison) in the Penobscot Building in Detroit in the fall of 1920. This was after stopping at PV to consult on the way too Detroit. He also went back to PV in 1921 and maybe at other times.  Alison revised Hamilton, Toronto, PV, and The Country Club of Detroit, all Colt originals, before providing The CCD a new course between 1924 and 1927.

All C&A courses in the NA after 1914 are by Alison.
Anthony

[Brad Klein]

Anthony, I'm not arguing the design attribution. I'm arguing your citing Cornish & Whitten as a definitive source for what you claim. if you check the specific references in that edition under, respectively, Colt, Alison, CC Detroit, Milwaukee CC and Orchard Lake, they do not substantiate your claim or that disclaimer for the design credit of Alison acting alone.. There are lots of mistakes, inconsistencies, omissions and contradictions in that book, however valuable it is (and it is) as a starting point and as a guide book. That's all I'm arguing here.

[Scott McWethy]

I was surprised to see the Dormie Club take such a big drop on the modern list.  Coore & Crenshaw courses tend to do pretty well on these lists.  I thought I remember seeing a thread the other year on GCA that the course was suffering from poor conditions / maintenance.  Anyone know if that is true and the reason for the substantial drop?

[Brad Tufts]

As for Ferry Point, there was no Golfweek rater outing and I haven't even played the course or seen the finished version (other than from my car driving over the Whitestone Bridge) but enough raters did to qualify it.

Mea Culpa Brad for assuming, and thanks for the clarification.

Might be more of a commentary on the overall quality of NY public golf!

[Bill_McBride]

H Chandler Egan on Eugene Country Club? Really? Clearly an RTJ. The course Egan designed is history.
Was Egan even alive in 1967?

You do understand the history, right?

[Jim Franklin]

Terry -

If you did not decipher my earlier reply, we open May 22 for member play and May 23 for guest play. Let me know when you want to come in and play. Or wait until I provide some feedback on playability after it opens. It looks great now, but it may not be as playable until later.

[Andrew Bernstein]

I was surprised to see the Dormie Club take such a big drop on the modern list.  Coore & Crenshaw courses tend to do pretty well on these lists.  I thought I remember seeing a thread the other year on GCA that the course was suffering from poor conditions / maintenance.  Anyone know if that is true and the reason for the substantial drop?

I played the course as recently as December and I did not notice that it was poorly conditioned. The ground was very, very firm and the course played extremely fast. That said, I wouldn't go out of my way to say the turf was in fantastic condition, either. Somewhere in the middle of the road.

[Niall Hay]

Anthony, I'm not arguing the design attribution. I'm arguing your citing Cornish & Whitten as a definitive source for what you claim. if you check the specific references in that edition under, respectively, Colt, Alison, CC Detroit, Milwaukee CC and Orchard Lake, they do not substantiate your claim or that disclaimer for the design credit of Alison acting alone.. There are lots of mistakes, inconsistencies, omissions and contradictions in that book, however valuable it is (and it is) as a starting point and as a guide book. That's all I'm arguing here.

Brad, to be safe why not just use Colt & Alison for all of the courses in question?  There is little doubt Milwaukee, Orchard Lake, Kirtland, Century, Knollwood and CCD were Alison designs, but were done under the C&A firm name.  Rather than mention Colt or Alison specifically, why use the firm name like we do for Coore and Crenshaw in the Modern?

All C&A designs in North American post 1914 were Alison. And although CCD had a Colt designed C&A course at one time, it was replaced after 1914 by Alison working out of the C&A office in Detroit.

[Niall Hay]

I'd be shocked to look at this list a year from now and not see Orchard Lake CC on classic top 200 list

Ben,

It currently resides at No. 152, I think that is a fairly safe bet!!

TK

152 isn't justice though, I believe around 50th is where it belongs.  

For once we agree Ben…

[Garland Bayley]

H Chandler Egan on Eugene Country Club? Really? Clearly an RTJ. The course Egan designed is history.
Was Egan even alive in 1967?

You do understand the history, right?

Your question seems to indicate that you think you understand the history. If so, please explain how Egan designed a modern course that the rankings state is a 1967 design. If Egan designed it, shouldn't it be a classic course with a 1923 date?

[John Kirk]

Interesting to see The Quarry at La Quinta appear at #83 Modern, after an (NR) no previous ranking.

The conventional wisdom on GCA is that The Quarry has been overrated in Golf Digest rankings.  Most GCA comments prefer Stone Eagle as the top course in the Coachella Valley.  And Golfweek's rankings tend to mirror the sentiments here on Golf Club Atlas.  But there it is at #83 Modern. 

It's quite a beautiful course, immaculate with good hole variety.  My objection to the high ranking are the large, gentle greens, which during my two visits yielded a disproportionate number of two putt pars.

[Mark Steffey]

Interesting to see The Quarry at La Quinta appear at #83 Modern, after an (NR) no previous ranking.

it was 197 last year. (almost NR  )   last in the top 100 at 99 in 2003.

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