[Tim_Weiman]

I had the opportunity to play the Yale University golf course for the second time in the past ten years and was reminded once again what an achievement the creation of this course was. But, the occasion was also sad and I couldn’t help asking: Is Yale the greatest tragedy in the world of golf?

Now, what do I mean by that?

Without being too philosophical tragedy implies “potential”, i.e., an original golf course design that was unique, brilliant and a challenging pleasure to play, but one that has also fallen into a sad state of affairs through neglect and/or misguided alterations.

The concept of “potential” is important here. We have all heard about The Lido, a lost course that was once among the finest in the world. But, while tragic, I can’t put The Lido in the same category as Yale. The Lido was lost and will never return. Yale, by contrast, still exists. It could be restored to its former glory. All it would take is hiring the right architect and a strong commitment from the university to support a sensitive restoration project. I’ll bet it wouldn’t even take money from the well endowed university. The mere announcement that the university would support such a project would probably bring funds from proud alumni who know how great Yale was and how great it could be once again.

Surely, if money could be poured into Bethpage Black – hardly as interesting a golf course – then something could be done for Yale.

Sadly, all we hear about Yale is that it is a political mess and that trying to sort through the university politics and union influence is damn near impossible. I just hope someday this pessimistic view can be proved wrong.

As to specific problems I might highlight, there are many. But, one really stood out: the bunker work near the green on the famous 18th hole. Apparently, it has been redone a couple times in recent years. Still, it looks so bad that I think it should be removed altogether if the university is not going to do a proper job. At least then there wouldn’t be anything to scar the place.

Tell me. Is there anything more tragic in golf than Yale?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tim;

The only thing that comes close in my mind is Timber Point.  When one considers the difference in funding between an Ivy League University and a local municipality, however, Yale wins hands down.  

It isn't even the conditions that bother me as much as the architectural graffitti that's being sprayed out there.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Timber Point is still around, sort of.  Sadder?

What is considered sadder, Yale neglect/poor work done, or something like 'butcherings' along the lines of Oakland Hills, Oak Hill, Inverness, Riviera, etc.?


To be honest, Yale is a blast to play in it's current state, IMO, but I know what you're sayin'.

[GeoffreyC]

Tim

Great to talk and play two rounds with you.

1925


2001 (note Huckaby strolling down 18 fairway)

[A_Clay_Man]

Tim- The obvious string to pull would be that of one of the richest families on the planet and happens to be a Yalie. G.H.W. Bush #41.

Beisdes the Yale connection I think a campaign that tugs on the family heart strings with the Walker connection.

 A few letters, a little philanthropy and "it could happen". (in your worst judy tenuta voice)

[Willie_Dow]

GC

Great comparison!  I can see Bill Kittleman in that 1925 picture, shovel in hand.

Willie

[Jim_H]

There are things going on, which I can't be too specific about.  An architect/master planner has been hired and his work is underway; there is a committee set up to oversee a renovation--and prior to that to raise money for it--and to try to raise a permanent endowment to support the course.  Among the problems not mentioned is the overplay of the course--33,000 rounds a year in a pretty short season.  The fees are low for students and staff--and probably should be--, but they are way too low for occasional play and especially for annual play by people unaffiliated with the University.
The golf course is a real treasure; I'm not sure the School recognizes that at the proper levels; but there is some hope.

[THuckaby2]

The camera adds 30 pounds, even from far away.  
(I'd add a smiley, but they don't seem to be working - is there something I have to do now besides just clicking on them?  I do not have them disabled.)

Re Yale GC, I think the "problem" is that it's so damn fun to play just as it is now, that although to devotees of golf course architecture it is "tragic" what the course has become, most players could care less, using the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" line of thinking.  In their minds, it ain't broke and don't need fixing!

But Geoffrey's pic obviously tugs at the heartstrings of those who care about what was, might have been, might still be....

Geoffrey has been fighting this battle for so long now, along with George Bahto they are the experts on the whys and what fors.  It is tragic, but they can speak to the realities of making this a triumph.

I just do think there must be a sentiment from many players that I describe above... I know I sure didn't come off Yale saying anything but my game that day sucked.  I enjoyed the heck out of the golf course, just as it is... even understanding what was and might be.... and I'd have to guess I am WAY more into these things than the average player there...

TH

[GeoffreyC]

Willie

Bill is as you said a Yalie.  Why he was not consulted or hired is a testament to the inept methods of the athletic department and university administration.  Mr. Kittleman is I believe aware of what has been going on at the course.

[GeoffreyC]

Jim H

Sorry but you are just wrong about the hope for a good outcome.  Use the new search function to drag up old threads describing the work, the committee of amateurs who have never read an architecture book or would know a Raynor hole from a Fazio one advising the architect and the architects blatent abuse of the Raynor/MacDonald style.  After all, he is a golf course architect and not a historian (his words!)

PS- if you would like to debate these issues in detail please let the show begin.  I have all the details and they are not pretty.

[George Pazin]

I wonder how many of today's golfers would prefer the new cleaner look - I'm almost fearful of what a poll would say.

Looks like a good bit of greenspace was lost as well.

[THuckaby2]

I was wondering the same thing, George.  I'd bet anything that if you polled all the golfers I know outside this group, it would be at least 80% in favor of the second of GC's pics as the "better" bunkers....

TH

[Jim_H]

Geoffrey--
I don't want to debate the issue, but I also don't know for sure what you are talking about.  You are probably referring to past work--that I agree was an abomination and a waste of money.  But I doubt that you are aware of current efforts.
These may also be a waste of money--unless the University commits to the course on a long-term basis.  And the commitment has to come from higher up than it has in the past.  It may be a long shot, but I merely was saying that there is some hope for the first time.  I didn't say that I was optimistic, just hopeful.  Not a certainty--but we'll see.
What I was also saying is that more than the architecture of the course needs to be looked at--also the economics of the course and the number of rounds needs to be drastically changed or it will just revert to where it was.

[Jim_H]

Redanman--
That same point in almost those same words has been made to high-up University officials.  We'll see what, if anything, happens.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

I'm asking this group to express its own feelings - not to surmise what you believe others - the average Joe - might think.

What is YOUR opinion? Is Yale the greatest tragedy in golf? If not, what other courses would you nominate?

[THuckaby2]

Tim:

Ok.  I was just trying to make the point that it really doesn't matter all that much what GCA aficionados (participants in this group) think, because so many outside this group could care less what was there before if what's there today is fun and clean and decently kept - all of which is the case at Yale.

But if you wish to deal with this in the abstract, then yes, I can't think of any greater tragedy architecturally than has occurred at Yale.  Of course to me it's a way bigger tragedy that they built condos all over a horrible course near my house that I used to play a lot, but I gather that's not what you're after either.

TH

[GeoffreyC]

Jim H

you say "But I doubt that you are aware of current efforts."

Are you aware that it was ME that got John Beinecke to look at the original work done by Roger Rulewich?  I told him what a butcher job it was and if it was not drastically changed the course would be horribly scarred. This was THE impetuous for the current pseudo-restoration, fund raising program and search for a new superintendent.

Are you aware that it was ME who put John and Carey in touch with George Bahto?  George did hole by hole drawing for them using the aerials and ground level photos.  Are you aware of that and that these detailed drawings that are faithful to the original course (1934) were never used?

Are you aware of a white paper report written by George describing what needed to be done to restore the course? Was it heeded?  NO.  Does this need to be made public too.

Jim- I know the details and they are not pretty. I know and have played the course with members of that "oversee committee" and frankly they don't know s**t about classic golf course architecture or Raynor's style.

[Jim Sweeney]

pLyed it two weeks ago. Seems like other then drainage, some bunker restoration,  some tree removal,and improved agronomy, it should be left alone. It would be as much a tradgedy for the course to become too refined.

I have always thought that the Yale course was sort of a museum piece. Even the Rembrandts and Picassos get cleaned once in a while- but no new brush strokes.

I hiope those of you that have the pull can continue to put on the pressure to make sure this thing is done right. Some old course can an should be renovated- YAle needs a restoration.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

I guess I'm looking for people to offer one of the following kind of responses:

a) Yes, Yale is the greatest tragedy in golf
b) No.......I nominate the following:_________
c) No, Yale is not a tragedy because:________

I'm firmly in the "a" camp.

[THuckaby2]

Tim:

OK.

With no further qualifiers (ie the word "architecturally" that I use, or "that still exists with its routing intact" that redanman uses), then put me firmly in the c camp.

Yale is not the greatest tragedy, because it still exists and is still very fun to play.  I'd be a member there in a heartbeat if they'd take me, which sure as heck ain't gonna happen!

Any course that has been paved over or for whatever reason no longer exists is a greater tragedy than Yale.

If you are basing this on the loss of great architecture at a course that still exists, then I join you in the a camp.

Make sense?

TH

[Joel_Stewart]

My vote would be the demise of Lido as the greatest tragedy in American golf.

My second vote would be what has happened at Augusta National over the last 30 years.  

[Matt_Ward]

I can't say if Yale is the greatest tragedy but redanman hit the nail squarely on the head regarding $$ resources.

Yale has more money than MANY countries. How and why the golf course is not prepared turf wise and architecturally wise is beyond reason.

The best part is the continuing amnesia that those who run the show in New Haven have with the pedigree of course they have. I can tell you this if there was a move to can a few English Literature professor types there would be more of an uproar than there is with the golf course.

[Dan Kelly]

Please forgive an ignorant question, gentlemen:

Why does Yale want to own a golf course?

[GeoffreyC]

Dan

Presumably for the enjoyment and recreation of their faculty, students and alums.  MANY colleges have golf courses and they are among some of the best classic courses around (Yale, Stanford, Michigan, Ohio State, Cornell) *sorry if I left anyone out*

The only good outcome I can see is if the alums bought the place from the school and ran it as a real private facility allowing students, the golf team and faculty access to the course.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Joel is probably correct, but I have to say that Yale isn't too far behind.

What a golf course, and what a bunch of nincompoops running the place. Start at the top with the University and their endowments. You would think they could come across a leader in the university system that knew how to deal with Unions. We aren't talking a normal labor union herre, we are talking about the Teamsters, and I can tell you that they have given ALL other labor unions a bad reputation. It is simple though and not nearly as hard as everyone thinks it would be in dealing with them. They have an agreement, and if they don't work to that agreement, then they (the workers) can be either be suspeneded or terminated.

Scott, to call Yale a golf course that is fun to play in its current condition is a pat on the back to these yoyo's to continue their plight in destroying the golf course. I have to tell you that I see a remarkable amount of this destruction as happening in the last few years, and it isn't going to stop until somebody or something does something about it. The features that Seth Raynor literally caved out of this unbelievable site are clearly disappearing out there faster and faster. But what difference is it going to make if people still consider the course fun to play and do nothing about it?

Yale may in fact may not be the Greatest tragedy in golf, but it is surely looking like a complete failure in modern terms. Complete failure to protect another one of Golf's Classics from the hand of the Modern Thinking Man.

Please excuse me, I now have to return to my test pattern of realization..........Focus, Focus, Focus. Focus on what I have seen............

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