[Patrick_Mucci]

The greens are the reason that there are so few first time winners and rarely the winner has missed the cut in the previous year. Ben Crenshaw is a great putter and reader of greens and he had enough respect for the subtle nuances of the greens to take a club caddie. 

Bill,

It's not the greens, it's the venue.

Not many Majors have first time winners.

The breaks aren't so subtle, they're pretty obvious on most greens.

[Sven Nilsen]

"You have to learn the breaks of the greens, and that takes a lifetime."  Ben Crenshaw

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

Do you actually believe all of the things you read about ANGC, most of which is "fluff".

If a PGA Tour Pro has to rely on anecdotal accounts from other pros in order to understand the greens, he won't be on the PGA Tour for very long.

If anything, criminal attorneys tell us that eyewitness accounts aren't very reliable.
For you to try to convince everyone that golfers remember the exact hole locations on every hole, and how EVERY possible putt broke, dating back for decades, is a myth of near biblical proportions.

What's additionally absurd about your statement is the underlying premise that the greens have remained static over all of those years, when we know for a fact that they are changed, almost on a yearly basis.  So, if Greg is telling Bubba how hole # X putted, and I don't think for a second that he is telling anyone, that's misinformation, as chances are, the greens have been changed since Greg putted it years before.

As to the red dot on a schematic, Rae's Creek isn't isolated to a single location, rather, it meanders through the property.

As to why anyone would be interested in its location, the answer is simple, it represents the lowest point on the property at about 49m ASL.   The high point on the property is next to the 1st green/2nd tee at 101m ASL.  That point is directly north of the low point, with the entire property sliding from high north to low south.

But, don't take my word for it, go ask Larry, Jack, Nick and Phil

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

You WANT to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy, and that's nice, but, it ain't the reality of the situation.

Ditto your desire to believe anything and everything you read about ANGC.

Those greens aren't that subtle and it doesn't take years to learn how to read them.

Garden City has seemingly benign greens, mostly canted/sloped with some contour on a few, you can read them, but, putting them successfully isn't that easy.

Pace and break combine to make them difficult.

Ditto ANGC

There's no mystery on most of those greens.
But, gaging the pace and break and then executing as you planned are two different things.
Not to mention the addition of pressure in a major.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

Have you played the Augusta greens at "tournament" speed?

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Have you played the Augusta greens at "tournament" speed?

Yes, have you ?

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

In your opinion, how much of a difference is there between "member" speeds and "tournament" speeds?  I know the actual speeds are closely guarded, but perhaps you could give us a general idea.

[Patrick_Mucci]

In your opinion, how much of a difference is there between "member" speeds and "tournament" speeds?  I know the actual speeds are closely guarded, but perhaps you could give us a general idea.

Depends on the time of year and daily stimp readings.

Read Arthur Weber's treatise on green speeds and slope..........absent wind.

[Sven Nilsen]

How about a guesstimate?

Also, on your comment about Rae's Creek meandering the property, I don't think you've got that quite right.

The creek itself cuts across the 13th hole right in front of the tee, crosses in front of the 12 green and then runs off the course just past the 11th green.  There are tributaries to the creek itself that feed down from various locations (many of them long since piped underground), including the stream that runs along the 13th fairway and in front of that green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How about a guesstimate?

For what purpose ?
So you can say that the greens at 11, 11.5 or 12 aren't like the greens at 13.
How would you know how they putt at differing speeds ?

Also, on your comment about Rae's Creek meandering the property, I don't think you've got that quite right.

I do, I said it meanders through[/u] the property and I'll stick with that statement, in spite of its location close to the southern border[/size][/color]

The creek itself cuts across the 13th hole right in front of the tee, crosses in front of the 12 green and then runs off the course just past the 11th green.  There are tributaries to the creek itself that feed down from various locations (many of them long since piped underground), including the stream that runs along the 13th fairway and in front of that green.

I know, I've walked along them numerous times

[BHoover]

If the Australian Open were a major, how would the greens at Royal Melbourne compare to those of other major championship venues?

[Sven Nilsen]

How's a new buck like me supposed to learn anything about the course if an old vet like you won't share the knowledge?

As for Rae's Creek, for the 150 to 200 yards that it crosses the course, it follows a pretty straight line:

[Jim Nugent]

"You have to learn the breaks of the greens, and that takes a lifetime."  Ben Crenshaw

If Ben were literally right, no one could win their first time out.  Only golfers who spent years and years there could win. 

Patrick, are all the top pro golfers Sven quotes misguided, misleading, a flock of lemmings who (falsely) parrot each other, or simply full of it? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

How's a new buck like me supposed to learn anything about the course if an old vet like you won't share the knowledge?
I've been more than generous in sharing my knowledge, unfortunatelly, you've been more than obtuse and obstinate in acquiring it

As for Rae's Creek, for the 150 to 200 yards that it crosses the course, it follows a pretty straight line:

I didn't use the word "course" you did.  I used the word "property"  

[Sven Nilsen]

“Greens on every golf course have a tendency to break to certain areas, and the magnet for those at Augusta is behind the 11th green,” he said. “I’ve learned that from all my time here, from all those Masters, and whenever I get a borderline putt, I read it toward that area from every hole on the course.”

-Carl Jackson, Ben Crenshaw's caddy at Augusta, who has worked 51 Masters Tournaments and looped the layout over 2,500 times. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

"You have to learn the breaks of the greens, and that takes a lifetime."  Ben Crenshaw

If Ben were literally right, no one could win their first time out.  Only golfers who spent years and years there could win.  

Patrick, are all the top pro golfers Sven quotes misguided, misleading, a flock of lemmings who (falsely) parrot each other, or simply full of it?  
Jim,

Let's just say that they're prone to embellishment and the continuation of the aura and the myths surrounding ANGC.

Why haven't you and others understood that with greens that are altered so frequently, how could anyone develop a static frame of reference ?

How could anyone present a putting rule for those surfaces in an historical context ?

Here's a simple chart for you

HOLE #          YEARS GREEN CHANGED

1                              1996, 2008*

2                              1953, 1954, 2008

3                              1956, 1981, 1994, 2008

4                              1938, 1994, 2008

5                              1937, 2008

6                              1981, 1994, 2008

7                              1937, 1938, 1994, 2005, 2008  

8                              1958, 1980, 1997, 2008

9                              1938, 1939, 1986, 1991, 2007, 2008

10                            1938, 1999, 2008

11                            1952, 1965, 1991, 1999, 2008

12                            1939, 1951, 1966, 1982, 1991, 2008

13                            1955, 1976, 1984, 2003, 2008

14                            1939, 1997, 2008

15                            2008

16                            1937, 1948, 1949, 1966, 1999, 2006, 2008

17                            1937, 2008

18                            1938, 1947, 2008


* 2008 Subair installed

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, I'm not taking any position on this.  It's interesting to watch Sven pull out what looks like heavy artillery, and then hear you counter him quite well. 

As for changing the greens, perhaps they did not change them so much as to render some/most past knowledge useless.  Also, changing them wouldn't have to mean Rae's Creek could not still influence putting on them.

btw I read recently (don't know if it's true) that Rae's Creek does not meander along #13: that is a tributary to Rae's called Jones Creek.   

[Sven Nilsen]

Jim:

A lot of this has been covered before:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,2376.0.html

Its worth the read.

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

Rae's Creek does NOT influence putts at ANGC.

Topography, construction and gravity influence putts at ANGC.

Peter Kostis and others declaring otherwise is merely "fluff" and myth building, especially on # 7 which is a constructed, elevated green in the middle of the golf course over a quarter of a mile removed from Rae's Creek, that's had work done to it five times or possibly more.

Only a gullible, naive individual, totally unfamiliar with ANGC could be taken in by this belated April Fool's joke

[Mark_F]

Peter Kostis and others declaring otherwise is merely "fluff" and myth building, especially on # 7 which is a constructed, elevated green in the middle of the golf course over a quarter of a mile removed from Rae's Creek, that's had work done to it five times or possibly more. 

But Patrick, have you considered the influence of the tide?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I had completely forgotten about the tide and the moon's influence on putts at ANGC.

Thanks for reminding me.

[Sean_A]

Pat

What do you think about the green sites as a set?

I think they're marvelous.

And, you have to view them, not just from play from the Masters tees, but from the perspective of play from the Members tees.

There seems to be a good variety of green sites, but there are a lot of steeply uphill approaches.  


Not really.
# 1 is level, # 2 downhill, # 3 slightly uphill, # 4 downhill, # 5 level, # 6 downhill, # 7 slightly uphill, # 8 level, # 9 uphill, # 10, unique, downhill to an elevated green, # 11 downhill, # 12 level, # 13 pretty level althought it could be slightly up or downhill, # 14 level to slightly uphill, # 15 downhill, # 16 level, # 17 level, # 18 uphill.

Thoughts?

Sean, I don't think there's any repetition in the putting surfaces, most of which tend to follow the terrain.
There are exceptions, but most of them aren't the originals.

Hole location is probably more critical on those greens than most others.

It's not just getting on the wrong side of the hole on those greens, but, the approach to get it on the right side of the hole.
Take # 15 yesterday.
That hole location eliminated a big draw into that green because if you aim right, and leave it there, or block it, your chances of recovery are very slim.

Likewise, with the hole located far left on Saturday, knowing that you'd like to be below the hole putting up to it, who has the balls or lack of grey matter to attempt to hit their approach under the hole.

So, it's not just the challenges you face ON the putting surface, it's the challenges you face, mentally and physically trying to approach the putting surfaces.

You may remember, when Tiger won one year and never hit more than a 7 iron into any par 4, and I think he hit a couple of sand wedges, including on # 15, well, that's a HUGE advantage.  I'll take a 9-iron approach over a 3-iron approach every day.  Hitting shorter clubs into those greens takes some of the fear factor out and boosts one's confidence.

As truly spectacular as the Masters telecast is, you still can't gain the proper perspective on those putting surfaces.

The slope on # 2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 15 and 18, when combined with the contouring/slope on # 5, 6, 7, 13, 14, 16 is incredible.
And, the subtle to not so subtle undulations on # 1, 8 and 17 make for great diversity.

# 11 and # 12 are probably the most benign greens, but, flanked with water, many golfers face longer putts than they'd like.

Hope that helps

Pat

Yes, thanks.  It has been a great many years since I saw the course and my (still) over-riding impression of the Augusta was the hills.  Though I must admit I thought #s 3, 8 and 10 were more than level or slightly uphill for the approach in the context of The Masters.  10 is odd because it does depend on how far one whacks it down the hill off the tee.  

Ciao

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