News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« on: March 16, 2012, 01:33:44 PM »
I'm a bit different than many on here, in that I tend to envy the people who get to explore a good or great course really in depth, as opposed to the people who get to travel all over and see many different courses 1 or 2 times. David Kelly recently mentioned that he has probably logged around 500 trips around Rustic Canyon. That's awesome.

What I'm wondering, for those who've played any particular course a bunch of times, is were there things that were revealed after you had played the course for the 20th time, the 50th, etc. Did you notice a particular hole played easier or harder from a certain side of the fairway? Did you notice that a particular hazard wasn't really worth challenging, the payoff wasn't there? Did you notice that on one particular hole, going long wasn't really death, it was the easier option? Things like that.

So please tell us about any course you've played a bunch of times and how your view of it has changed (or even if it hasn't, share that as well).

I'm also interested in hearing from the architects out there. You probably haven't had a change to play your courses that many times, but were there things that you noticed after a few years that surprised you?

Thanks, I'll hang up and listen...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Anthony Gray

Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2012, 04:07:39 PM »

  I've played Pebble 20 times and there is more OB right than you would expect.

  Anthony


Patrick_Mucci

Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2012, 04:16:25 PM »
George,

Years ago Rees Jones told me that he sees something new every time he plays NGLA.

Years later, I've foundt the same to be  true
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 06:53:45 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2012, 04:20:20 PM »
George,

Years ago Rees Jones told me that he sees something new every time he plays NGLA.

Years later, I've found that the same is true

How about seeing the 8th tee and continuing your Magical Mystery Tour ::).

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2012, 06:39:46 PM »
The best thing about playing a ton of golf at the same place for a long time is that you learn to appreciate that the course is a living thing (literally) and that it changes over time. The worst thing is that you can easily measure your dissipation over the years.

Specifically to Rustic Canyon:

There are specific shots that used to be played at RC that can't be played nowadays because the course has softened over time - from maintenance practices and just through age.

With a large sample size you can begin to rule out certain strategies i.e. there is no use in laying up on the left side with your second shot on #1, when the pin is back right on #2 the play for me is to hit it over the green on my approach and pitch back (to avoid the huge mound in the middle of the green), laying up off the tee on #3 only works on a few pins and probably isn't worth it, I'd rather hit it halfway to the hole on the par 3 4th than be over the green on my tee shot (same with the par 3 15th), etc...

Having been through a major fire, a major flood and minor fires and floods the course has changed its shape in places, 1 hole became completely NLE while a few others had major work done on them.






"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2012, 06:54:41 PM »
JME,

Hopefully in April

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2012, 08:08:11 PM »
What you learn is that everytime you hit it somewhere you shouldn't, that sticks in your mind. So while you might be smarter in gaining stragetic info, you learn where not to hit is, which ultimately makes you a more defensive player and can often times screw you up. For example, I've played many courses 1 time, and played them very well.

Just hitting fairways and greens. Given an off day, I would score higher and vis ver sa.

For example, the 4th hole at Pebble. I always blasted my drive to the left side of the fairway. Block it once out to the right, and you don't swing as free
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2012, 10:53:55 PM »
What you learn is that everytime you hit it somewhere you shouldn't, that sticks in your mind. So while you might be smarter in gaining stragetic info, you learn where not to hit is, which ultimately makes you a more defensive player and can often times screw you up. For example, I've played many courses 1 time, and played them very well.

Just hitting fairways and greens. Given an off day, I would score higher and vis ver sa.


Cary, this is very well said and something I completely agree with.

Sure, I know a lot more about my home course than my guests.  I know the green contours without seeing the putting surface, I know the ideal line into the green and I know the club I like to hit off of every tee....BUT I also know every bad spot you can possibly be on the golf course because at some point I hit it there...

It can be hard to see the good spots to hit it when you are so aware of the bad.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2012, 11:59:59 AM »
The more you play a links course the more you realise it changes everytime you play it. The variations in wind speed, wind direction and bounce mean the course changes daily.
Cave Nil Vino

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2012, 11:26:49 AM »
Forgot I started this thread last week (gettin' old...).

Terrific responses so far, not at all what I was expecting, but much better, in fact. Thanks.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2012, 11:46:14 AM »
I enjoy strategic golf in general compared to penal golf. As I play a course many times and frequently hit it where I shouldn't, I find out about a myriad of options on a well designed course.  I am amazed at how smart an archetect is that designed one of these holes.  A poorly designed hole tends to dictate only one way to play the game which is different than just a plane old hard hole.  This also becomes more evident with multiple plays.

It is the difference between the two above that I get by playing a course multiple times. The ability of the archetect to present the options in a way that I have to visit different locations on that hole to fully understand amazes me and humbles me about the art of golf design. Not my gift but I certainly appreciate their art.


Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2012, 11:46:45 AM »
George:

One of the things I enjoy most about repeated plays on the same course is playing a wind that you normally don't see.  In Chicago, we generally get a southwest wind, with the occasional breeze coming directly off of the lake (from the east).  In times of extreme weather changes, you can get a northwest wind or occasionally a wind directly out of the north, and sometimes a wind from the south when the temperatures are unseasonably high, as they have been for the past couple of weeks.

Changing winds create varied strategies.  Sometimes the play is over a bunker, sometimes its around it or next to it.  Sometimes you're looking to land the ball at the pin, while at other times on the same hole you need to be able to run the ball in.  The shifting strategies based on the days conditions are a big part of why the game never gets stale when played on the same course.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Anthony Gray

Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2012, 11:53:17 AM »


  The Old Course never gets old. Do you see something different every time you play it? No. But it is a wonderful experience. The first tee shot is always nerve racking dispite the large fairway. I liped out a birdie on 17. Picked up and won't play it again. Look foward to my trip in September when I'll be caddying.

  Anthony

 

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2012, 12:21:44 PM »


  The Old Course never gets old. Do you see something different every time you play it? No. But it is a wonderful experience. The first tee shot is always nerve racking dispite the large fairway. I liped out a birdie on 17. Picked up and won't play it again. Look foward to my trip in September when I'll be caddying.

  Anthony

 It never gets old. (Old Course) I need to play a lot more, but what I was impressed with is it's potential of a lifetime of different journeys. That is the essence of a great design.

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2012, 01:34:48 PM »
I agree with the above about the strategy, wind, etc.  For me, what I notice most are the choices made by my playing partners about how to play certain shots or holes.   I often find myself wondering why a golfer is playing this or that shot given the conditions, set up, or state of the match.  Most particularly when their interpretation about how to play a shot or hole on a given day differs from mine.  Probably because I often play with high cappers who play all of their golf on one course, I canít help noticing when a golfer plays by rote habitóessentially playing the same clubs and shots even when conditions suggest different options.  Take these same guys to a new unfamiliar course, and this small flaw is magnified (predictably higher score).
 
Am I learning anything?  Probably not.  Iím just being reminded that some of the subtle things that I enjoy about the game arenít of much importance to others.  So, watching golfers of all levels interact with the course is interesting to me.
     
A different version of this observation happens with better players.  Iím mystified by guys who play nearly every day, always with a pencil & card, their range finders and gizmos, and always on the same course.  Vanity cappers, as theyíve been called here.  Also very good players.  I notice a form of tunnel vision that is foreign to me.  Iím not talking about concentration and focus while playing.  Iím talking about being oblivious to the overall landscape.  I like trying new shots and adapting my game to the conditions.  But I also like looking around a smelling the roses too.  Oh well, different strokes for different folks.  As has been often noted here, most of these guy think we are nuts.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2012, 10:36:54 PM »
Of the two courses I play regularly, I would say I learn something on one of them at least once every 5 rounds.  It can be a helpful angle, a new slope on the fairway that provides a favorable bounce or a new place to avoid.  On the other, I don't think I learn much unless the greens are extremely fast.

I would say the ability to learn new things after many rounds is a strong indicator of quality.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 03:15:43 AM »
A couple of my favourite courses took me some time to get hold of them.  Those extra and repeated games naturally reveal bits n' bobs not fully appreciated previously.  Often times, it is learning features which determine the correct positional play or which offers options.  Wind too plays a huge roll in seeing different holes under full consideration. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Winterfield & Alnmouth

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2012, 02:29:09 PM »
The more you play a links course the more you realise it changes everytime you play it. The variations in wind speed, wind direction and bounce mean the course changes daily.

Mark's quote above and Sean's comments in the previous post are bang on the money. I find it very sad that the idea that tee positions should change to cater for that particular days wind direction, or fairways should be widened to accommodate full blooded shots in windy conditions, seems to have some currency even on this site.

As to the specifics of the question, I joined Moray GC last year, and it took me quite a few plays to realise that taking the outside line on the dog-legs almost always gives a better angle into the green which is somewhat counter intuitive given the inside line is usually better defended by bunkers. Couldn't tell you how many games it took, maybe about a dozen I would guess, but I only twigged after ending up in the "correct" spot by accident.

Niall

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2012, 02:34:51 PM »
I find it very sad that the idea that tee positions should change to cater for that particular days wind direction, or fairways should be widened to accommodate full blooded shots in windy conditions, seems to have some currency even on this site.

You are so very right in this observation. It reminds me of what (I think) Tom D said about Pete Dye (and this is paraphrasing, to say the least): conventional wisdom is to make the longer par 4s play downhill and the shorter ones uphill. But all this does is even everything out.

Celebrate the change! (That's me, not Tom or Pete - they'd be a lot more clever.)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2012, 03:45:36 PM »
TOC - I've played it maybe 50 times, but not recently. I've only ever played it with locals and what I've learned is that whatever shot you play, good or bad, your partner (s) will recall, 'Arnold Palmer played from there in 1960, except that he used a 7-iron,' or, 'I remember so and so shanking it from there and taking a 7.' It was very heartening when you found that you had done better than someone famous, on one hole or another.

I recently played a Seniors' match away at Bramall Park, a course I played a lot in the 1980s, maybe 100 times. I was horrified that I was hitting 5-wood into greens that I used to hit with a 7-iron or 8-iron and we were playing from forward winter tees.

I played a Seniors' match today at Wilmslow and we played from the forward, yellow tees. Although I was still short off the tee in comparison with my playing partners I was, none the less, hitting the ball from the yellow tee to where I used hit it from the white tee. So, in my five years at Wilmslow I've lost 30 yards from my drive. But at least I got to see bits of the course I haven't seen for a while. I didn't score any better than I would have done from the medal tees because I still had to lay up short of cross-bunkers etc - except I was laying up with a 7-iron when from the back tees i might lay up these days with some sort of hybrid.

I have been a member of Conwy now for some 30+ years. The design has changed little in those years, but conditioning and so on have changed. My ability has declined, but I am less scared of the course, and the gorse in particular. I don't drive far but I am driving straighter (thanks to new technology) and by keeping the ball in play my scores are not that much worse than they might have been 20 years ago. The good thing is that Conwy is still receptive to the ground game. Even if I top a shot it will probably run almost as far as the aerial version and a running approach to many of the greens is still very much on the cards.

But someone earlier mentioned the bad shots. I have awful days nowadays when I can't get out of my head a shank here, a topped shot there, failure to get of a particular bunker or driving out of bounds on another hole on a previous occasion. I had been driving perfectly straight today and stood on the 7th tee with an out of bounds hedge and road on the left. I used frequently to slice (left-handed) onto the road here. But as I made my backswing a thought came into my head, 'You don't fear the out of bounds any more.' What a silly thought! I didn't hit it out of bounds, but my grip tightened fiercely and I tried to steer the ball as I struck it. OK it went straight, but I played first on the next shot by at least 75 yards! There are advantages and disadvantages to knowing a course well, provided you have the technique, physical prowess and mental resolve to overcome the frailties of the ageing body and mind.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2012, 05:25:56 AM »
Mark

Clearly Bramall Park no longer plays fast and firm the way it used to  ;).

I think what comes out of this discussion is that you can know a course too well ! As someone else pointed, you often play better first time round purely on the basis of you not knowing where the trouble is. Of course I suppose its true also in that good memories encourage good golf.

Niall

Ian Andrew

Re: What did you learn on the 20th play? the 50th? the 200th?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2012, 02:11:37 PM »
I've been lucky enough to play Highlands Links 20 times.

What I learnt fairly quick was where I could miss and still score (5th, 9th, 12th, 17th).

Within a few rounds I learnt that passive play was well rewarded on a series of holes and I have made par almost every time since changing my strategy. (4th, 6th, 8th, 11th, 15th and 16th)

But what took longer was learning where to be overly aggressive to achive a better score. (1st, 2nd, 14th and 18th).
I take more chances on these holes because playing passive never provided results.


Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back