[Ed Tilley]

This is England and the EU - nothing takes precedence over environmental regs. There are rare breeds of snail at risk here!

Braunton Burrows is just about the most regulated and controlled dune system in the UK. Saunton don't own the land for the course and I believe the lease comes with all sorts of conditions as to what they can't do, and what they have to do to maintain the site.

The irony in all this of course is that mother nature doesn't decide what happens to the Burrows, English Nature does. Apparently "Scrub invasion is managed to maintain a state of semi-equilibrium and prevent succession to a climax community". Now I'm not sure exactly what that means but it sure as hell doesn't mean let nature take its course!

[Garland Bayley]

I dumbly overlooked that probably most (and as you say specifically Saunton) links courses are on common ground and not owned by the clubs. That makes a huge difference.

[Garland Bayley]

No matter whether the maintenance problems are under their control or not. The golf holes lack good architecture. Therefore, it seems to me to be a mistake to rate them high. Alister MacKenzie in The Spirit of St. Andrews often bemoans the ruination of golf courses by flat ground. I don't see sympathy as a legitimate rating raiser.

[Thomas Dai]

I had the pleasure of playing 18-holes over both the East and West courses at Saunton recently. Both courses were as splendid as ever.


One notable change being undertaken is on the mid-length par-4 11th hole on the East, which is being modified a bit.


Two pot bunkers are in the process of being built on the left side of the fairway directly opposite the angular corner of the ditch, thus making a very tight avenue between the ditch and the new bunkers to hit through. Do you take tight avenue on? Do you try to fly it? Or do you lay-up? Nice strategic questions/puzzle to solve.


In addition, the area to the back-right of the green is being adjusted and the ditch to the right side of the green is being cleared out, re-sloped and also extended a few yards around the back-right edge of the green.


Atb

[Ian Andrew]

While I liked a number of holes, I was equally underwhelmed at times too.
Club seem to be obsessed with being hard over everything else.

The reeds growing on the edge of many fairways was the most perplexing of these decisions. [/size]The arbitrary nature of this penalty was beyond me.

There were certainly some great green sites, but they couldn't overcome so many instances where there was no architectural attempt to overcome lesser land.

West had some great bits btw - little more fun to play

[Frank Pont]

I'm with Garland and Ian on this one.

Was quite disappointed with Saunton East, expecting much more.
Too much blind tee shots, too little variety.

Really came away thinking how much better the course could be if it was rerouted and rebuild by one of the top archies in this day and age....

Funny enough I did not mind the flatness of the property, I thought it would be a great landscape to replicate on a flat property where you had a good budget to do earth moving

[Ryan Coles]

While I liked a number of holes, I was equally underwhelmed at times too.

Club seem to be obsessed with being hard over everything else.


The reeds growing on the edge of many fairways was the most perplexing of these decisions.
The arbitrary nature of this penalty was beyond me.

There were certainly some great green sites, but they couldn't overcome so many instances where there was no architectural attempt to overcome lesser land.

West had some great bits btw - little more fun to play

Ian


Shouldn't golf be arbitrary, particularly links golf?


Miss the fairway, you might have a clear shot to the green, you might not - personally this is preferable to me than uniform-length rough everywhere and was certainly well received at Pinehurst no2


Specifically, what architectural attempts would you make to overcome what you consider lesser land?

[Sean_A]

Golf in England is in great shape when folks express disappointment for a course 99% of golfers would give their left nut to play weekly  .  Perhaps folks should step back and take things in perspective.  How anybody could say Saunton's par 4s aren't a great bunch is something which I find puzzling. 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

I do wonder how someone can complain about too much flatness and at the same time complain about too many blind shots. If a course is flat then it cannot be also blind. From a golfing point of view TOC is far from flat though many on here have judged it too be just that, flat. IMO a courses flatness is judged by the number of level lies that you have on the round. My only real quibble with Royal Birkdale is that it is a flat playing course though it does make up for this in the variety of shot making challenge it sets. TOC has not only this but also a variety of challenge in the stance/lies it provides to the golfer. This is Dornoch's greatest asset and Nairn's as well.

I would suggest that whilst the contours at Sauton are not large of scale they offer a subtle challenge.  Are not the large dunes of Cruden, Trump or Doonbeg just golfing bling? What makes these courses great or not are the contours in the field of play.

Jon

[Frank Pont]

I do wonder how someone can complain about too much flatness and at the same time complain about too many blind shots. If a course is flat then it cannot be also blind.

Jon

Jon,

The lies on the fairways were very often quite flat.

The tee shots were often blind because a hill was blocking the view of the fairway.

So I do not see why you could not have a course with flat fairways with blind tee shots.....

[Michael Latham]

Well as a  past member of 20 years or so and a very regular player of both courses at Saunton, I struggle to recognise the golf course I know so well from the cursory "flat lies and blind tee shots".
 When I read that the Saunton links could be supposedly improved on a flat landscape with a significant earth moving budget I assume that is what passes for humour, please assure me that this comment is a joke.

[Frank Pont]

Well as a  past member of 20 years or so and a very regular player of both courses at Saunton, I struggle to recognise the golf course I know so well from the cursory "flat lies and blind tee shots".
 When I read that the Saunton links could be supposedly improved on a flat landscape with a significant earth moving budget I assume that is what passes for humour, please assure me that this comment is a joke.

Mike sorry for the confusion and my obviously unclear writing.

What I meant is that:

- first the landforms of Saunton east could more easily be recreated on a flat piece of land, if one could move enough dirt, rather than say sites like Cruden Bay or Royal Hague

- second it would be an interesting exercise to see if you could route a new 18 holes golf course better through the landforms than the existing golf course

As to the blind tee shots, I will go back to my photo's and count them, it made enough of an impression to stick in my mind, but maybe I am wrong......

[Adrian_Stiff]

I  would never put Saunton in the 'blind' category. It is pretty much all in front of you.


Good vision of the fairway at every hole except 8 and 16, you could make a case that downwind at 18 someone might chop a bit off the right mound. The par threes are all very visible. I have not seen the new 2nd green but every other green is visible, if you hit your tee shot on the fairway. At 8 and 9 there are places where you can't see the green from, possibly if you get too close too the 10th.


As a links course I would say it ticks a lot of modern boxes. I think it could be vastly improved with a bit of light movement in the fairways, they did it at Troon on 15 and it looks great from the pictures. That aside Saunton fits the purpose and to most people it is the best course in the South West.

[Garland Bayley]

... IMO a courses flatness is judged by the number of level lies that you have on the round....

That would be all of the lies in the fairway except perhaps on 18.
The only blind shots that I know of are on 8 and 16, and possibly 18 if you don't drive far enough to have a view from beyond the dogleg.


Sean,


It seems to me that those that would give part of their anatomy to play there often, would soon be wishing they had that part of their anatomy back.


I found the course to be boring.

[Jon Wiggett]

Garland,

whilst it does not have large movement there is plenty of low key movement giving many subtle challenges. From recollection it is certainly not the tee flat expanse that you paint.

I concur on the blind shots. But given that it is a much talked about course and so many seek out its challenge I suspect it is you that do not understand its charm. A good thing I suspect as if we all agreed on everything this board would be very boring

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

What was Saunton like as laid out by Herbert Fowler, ie before the WWII army/tank etc exercises?


There are a few photos and words on the clubs website history page, however, does anyone have any maps etc of what the original Fowler course(s) were like?


Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

I have a map of Old Saunton. From memory there were two holes left of the clubhouse (as you look at 18). The first was a long short hole, I think back down 18. I am away at the moment so can't look. I think the West course was completely rebuilt, my great uncle Alfie Reed did some work on it, perhaps irrigation. I also have some pictures of the 1932 Ladies Amateur and I don't recognise the holes. There is a picture in Sauntpn's history book of the old first.

[Ian Andrew]

Shouldn't golf be arbitrary, particularly links golf?

Yes, but isn't the adjacent fescue an even better answer. You can usually find the ball, identify it and potential play the ball. Even heather is better than dense clumps of reeds

I've played around around 75 courses in the UK, this was unique to this course and in my opinion took away from the course and architecture

[Garland Bayley]

Ian,


Are you talking about the "reeds" that would be the same as the sea rushes on Royal North Devon?

[Thomas Dai]

I have a map of Old Saunton. From memory there were two holes left of the clubhouse (as you look at 18). The first was a long short hole, I think back down 18. I am away at the moment so can't look. I think the West course was completely rebuilt, my great uncle Alfie Reed did some work on it, perhaps irrigation. I also have some pictures of the 1932 Ladies Amateur and I don't recognise the holes. There is a picture in Sauntpn's history book of the old first.

Thanks for this insight Adrian.


There are two photos on the clubs website that got me thinking about previous, even pre-Fowler, routings. These ones -





With the caption "The 1st hole - early 1920's"


Notice how play is from the right (east) along a wall. This wall would appear to be alongside the housing/buildings that are now a couple of hundred yards right of the course. The present clubhouse (site of) is not visible so the clubhouse must then have been an older version located nearer the village (ie to the right of the current East 16 fairway) - for a close up see - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.1164676,-4.2039582,144m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en


and





With the caption "Exhibition match on the old 18th green. Now the green on short practice ground." (which it indeed pretty much still is).

Note how play would appear to be from the left (southwest) with the clubhouse on it's current site. I wonder if this exhibition was part of a event to mark the opening of the new clubhouse?

To view some yee olde course maps, pre and post Fowler, would be most interesting.

For a few more olde photos and a potted club history see - http://www.sauntongolf.co.uk/history_of_the_club

atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

That first pic was the Old 1st, but became the new 18th in a later routing when they got the present clubhouse (2nd pic). When they got the clubhouse, the new first was 235 yards I think played from in front the clubhouse back down 18 (about where the fairway starts now). I am pretty sure my great uncle said the original West course was better or they (members) had found great holes in the dunes to the left, unfortunately it was 30 years ago, but the essence of what he said was that there was a better course inside those dunes.


There's a 7250 combo that could be used for 'the Open' but obviously Saunton has other logistical problems beyond the course itself.
1, 2, 3 as they are then 6 and 7 of the West, then a long short hole back into the 15th green of the West then no 5 of the West, then 4 of the East (as the 8th) and a 480 yard 6th of the East (as the 9th). 7 became 10 but another 480 yarder...then the rest pretty much as they are.  It loses the tiddler and the loop of 8, 9 and 10 but it frees things up for spectators, stands etc, plus adds that 'important' 7250 mandatory length.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for the clarifications and further insights Adrian.


The 'Open' composite course is most interesting. Lots of the best holes, like the terrific '7th' on the West included, and playing the '15th' West as a long par-3 but played from a tee somewhere near the green of the '7th' West is most intriguing. It would be a pretty tough hole with that raised green site.


atb

[Ed Tilley]

I've been down to Saunton twice in the last few months - once in August and again last week. I managed to play a round on both the East and West in August and 2 on the East, with 1 on the West in late October. I hadn't played the East for some years and will admit that my recollection was of it being hard, stern, and not particularly fun - I remember feeling slightly let down. Having played it 3 times in the last few months, with the course playing firm and the rough in no way unfair I must admit that I am now converted into a huge fan. The green sites are amongst the best as a set of any course I've ever played - 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 15 and 16 are simply fantastic. And those bunkers are proper hazards - open up the face and try and get it out was normally my thought. Conversely, I found my opinion of the West going down slightly and I wanted to be on the East when I was on the West.

I would urge anyone to visit this wonderful course around late summer / autumn as it is real high quality golf. Stupidly cheap if you play at the right time too. I'd even say that, given 10 rounds to split between St.Enodoc and Saunto East, I'd go 5:5.

A few additional photos to Sean's tour:

The wonderful 130 yard 5th. Everything is telling you to not be short off the tee:


But you actually are much better off there than slightly long as you'll roll 30 yards down the steep bank.





The 11th with the new bunkers on the corner of the dog leg tightening the drive:



From the corner of the wall this is a scary second as the ditch is hard to the green side and snaking round the back right.


From 5 yards right where my ball finished up on this occasion - this is a tough shot!


From the center of the fairway

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for this update Ed. The photos of the revised 11th are interesting for when I last played the East they were in the middle of undertaking the work.


As to the comparison with StE, well although Saunton doesn't have the inherent photogenic-ness that StE has it fortunately also doesn't have that bloody hill to climb!


Atb

[Sean_A]

I stopped by Saunton a few weeks back...in glorious weather.  I must say, the East is as tough as ever!  Last time the 5th wasn't in play...what a hole.  See the significantly updated tour on page 1.

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