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JNC Lyon

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What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« on: March 10, 2012, 12:57:34 PM »
http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/the-best-4th-hole-in-rochester-oak-hill-west-a-true-short-hole/

This article mostly concerns the 4th hole of the West Course, but it gets into what I think is one of the biggest misconceptions in golf architecture: what constitutes a "short" hole.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mark Saltzman

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2012, 03:13:20 PM »
Thank you, Lyon's Den, very interesting. 

Interestingly, I find that short holes like the ones you mentioned are not well-received by many.  Some find the greens too extreme.  Some think that par-3s should not be so 'easy' (read: short) and thus feel the need to lengthen them as was done to OH(W).  And some argue that if you hit the green you should have no problem two-putting for par.

And yet, I think a good short hole can be the most interesting on the course.  A short iron in hand and a shot that truly demands precision.  Pull it off and you have a good chance at 2, but miss your target by a few yards and two-putting for 3 becomes a daunting task.

The 13th at Oakland Hills (South) is another great example of the Ross Short Template.  Playing a little under 150 yards, the green slopes generally from back-to-front.  A fantastic horseshoe green with a hole-in-one for the taking if the pin is in the bowl, but any pin outside the bowl requires the utmost in precision.  Missing on the wrong side and having to putt through the bowl is a disaster.


Kevin Lynch

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2012, 08:11:04 PM »
Nice piece, JNC. Do you have a pic of OH(W) 4th.  It was one of my favorites during my visit.

I saw the title of the thread and thought I may need a flak jacket to enter.  One of my first experiences with GCA was a hotly discussed thread about Leatherstocking and whether the 12th was a "Short." I realized at that moment that I was into GC architecture, but that some people are REALLY into it.

Bill Brightly

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2012, 08:36:22 PM »
Well played Master Lyon!

Jim Sherma

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2012, 08:55:52 PM »
Well stated - threads like this and the information they contain is why this site is the best. I've never heard a "short" described like that and it definitely gave me some clarity on the template's concept. Thanks.

Bill Brightly

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2012, 11:18:54 PM »
I really can't prove this, but I have a theory that ODG "Short" holes have the saddest history of molestation in the US. Lengthening is the mildest of the crimes. The worst is the cropping of the putting surface to a "more normal" size, and/or flattening or removal of the horseshoe.

Just think what the "modernization" architects thought from 1960-1990 when they got their hands on these holes: "here is a hole that needs to be lengthened and the putting surface is far too large for the length of the hole." I know William Gordan chopped down the Charles Banks green at Hackensack, we actually have photos of the green sod being stripped out from the back of the green :(, just before the back hill was removed. I wonder how many others were altered.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 11:24:10 PM by Bill Brightly »

Morgan Clawson

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2012, 11:38:42 PM »
Good stuff JNC.

So, giiven what we have learned about the Short, which courses and holes have the best execution?

Bill Brightly

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2012, 07:47:38 AM »
Good stuff JNC.

So, giiven what we have learned about the Short, which courses and holes have the best execution?

Macdonald: National
Raynor: Yeamans Hall or St. Louis CC
Banks: Forsgate

BCrosby

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2012, 08:36:14 AM »
John Low once wrote that "a short hole should not be long."

Low was being a wee bit facetious I'd guess. Even so, the point is hard to argue with.

Bob

BCrosby

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2012, 08:38:55 AM »
JNC -

I meant to mention that the link to your piece doesn't seem to be working.

Help. Thanks.

Bob

JNC Lyon

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2012, 09:55:39 AM »
http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/the-best-4th-hole-in-rochester-oak-hill-west-a-true-short-hole/#more-3766

Let's see, this one might be better.  If not, I'll just copy and paste the text of the article.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JNC Lyon

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2012, 10:09:17 AM »
John Low once wrote that "a short hole should not be long."

Low was being a wee bit facetious I'd guess. Even so, the point is hard to argue with.

Bob

I think that's part of a "short" hole too, but not the only part.  A Short hole's strategy works best with a short iron in hand because the golfer can be more aggressive.  If you are going after a Short with, say, a 4-iron (the club I use from the new back tee at Oak Hill (West)'s 4th), your focus shifts from trying to hit one subsection of the green to just trying to hit the green.

That said, a "Short" hole template is not just a short par three.  To say that is to marginalize all of MacDonald and Raynor's abilities as architects and creators and strategic golf holes.

Kevin,

Yeah, the 12th at Leatherstocking is one inspiration for my essay.  Is it a neat and unique short par three? Yes.  Is it surrounded by bunkers? Yes.  Is it a "Short" hole?  No freakin' way.  The goal of the golfer on that hole is to hit the green, and maybe get it close.  No more, no less.

Mark and Bill,

I think you hit the nail on the head as to why the "Short" hole is misunderstood and maligned.  Most people don't understand or appreciate the strategic decisions involved--they see a short par three with a monstrous, undulating green.  A handful of those people know vaguely that the hole is a "Short," probably because that's hole name on the scorecard, and they appreciate it as an historical anecdote.  But almost nobody sees how these holes are set up.  Playing the 4th on the West on a day-to-day basis makes you appreciate how the hole plays out mentally.  It's brilliant.  Of course, most of the members don't seem to understand that, so they built a new back tee.

And yes, the "Short" hole seems to have been bastardized over the years.  Yale's Short is a major travesty: they have construction photos of crews laying down dirt to create a horseshoe contour in the 5th green, yet this feature is nowhere to be found today.

Best examples I've played are Yeamans Hall (the bathtub!), Hackensack (even with the green altered, it's still a pretty neat green), and, of course, Oak Hill (West).  Another par three that I like in this vein is 10 at Worplesdon, which has a green that is divided into six sections.  Even the most learned of architecture critics rip on this hole for being too much of a signature hole without much substance.  That's another sign that many don't understand the strategy of the "Short."
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 12:01:44 AM by JNC Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JNC Lyon

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2012, 10:14:48 AM »
I don't have photos of the hole myself, but I found a link to photos of every hole on the West Course, including the 4th.  The photo here gives a good sense of the view from the tee, but not necessarily the contours of the green.

http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/photos/newyork/oakhill(west)/
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2012, 10:20:43 AM »
A) Both links to the article worked for me. Don't know what happened with BC.

B) Fox Chapel-Raynor

C) Since Raynor, Banks and CBM came from the same tribe, what is more interesting to me is the Golden Age ODGs like Ross who were not from that camp, yet employed the technique. Did Travis, Emmet, Tillinghast, MacKenzie, Hunter or any others take a stab at the Brancaster Short hole?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JNC Lyon

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2012, 10:27:29 AM »
A) Both links to the article worked for me. Don't know what happened with BC.

B) Fox Chapel-Raynor

C) Since Raynor, Banks and CBM came from the same tribe, what is more interesting to me is the Golden Age ODGs like Ross who were not from that camp, yet employed the technique. Did Travis, Emmet, Tillinghast, MacKenzie, Hunter or any others take a stab at the Brancaster Short hole?

Fox Chapel is another good one, although a slightly smaller scale.

I'm not familiar enough with most of the architects' work to know if they employed Short holes.  From my experience, though, Emmet built short par threes in the penal small green vein.  Look at 2 at Garden City or 12 at Leatherstocking.  I'd be interested to see that short par three at Mohawk--is it a penal small green or a Short hole?

Another Short hole I like (although not from the back tees) is 3 at Dismal River.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Ronald Montesano

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Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

BCrosby

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2012, 11:52:26 AM »
JNC -

Thanks. I enjoyed your piece. Nice job.

My idea of the classic Ross short is the 17th at Seminole. I've seen that type of par 3 on any number of Ross courses. It is not like the 4th at OH West. Smaller green with less internal contour. I wonder if the 4th at OHW type of par 3 - a terrific hole - isn't a bit of an outlier for Ross?


Bob  

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2012, 12:15:24 PM »
JNC,
JNC,
Thanks for the enjoyable article.

Here's an old photo of the 12th at Leatherstocking. The green is quite a bit larger than the 6,000 sq.' that remains today. The yardage is in the range of a short. If you enlarge the photo by 400 or 500% you will see that the gents in the photo are standing behind a horseshoe feature, one tall enough to conceal their lower legs.
So, if a huge "Island" green  + short yardage + segmented surface to test putting skills =s the "Short" concept, then this hole fits the bill.  Plus, the description Macdonald used to describe the idea was: "Similar to 5th Brancaster with tee raised so player can see where pin enters hole". 
 


Raynor's "Short" at our course is also a downhill shot, we "fit" the mold in yardage, original size of the green, visible hole/pin, island, but we don't have the segmented putting surface. 

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2012, 02:07:02 PM »
The one at Fox Chapel is slightly downhill.

Jim, that photo is a huge find and will certainly make KLynch and others curse the powers that be in that Baseball town, that had the temerity, the impetuous effrontery, to shrink the green.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2012, 02:13:06 PM »
The one at Fox Chapel is slightly downhill.

Jim, that photo is a huge find and will certainly make KLynch and others curse the powers that be in that Baseball town, that had the temerity, the impetuous effrontery, to shrink the green.

I didin't find the photo, but it's one that JNC has seen before.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2012, 02:31:06 PM »
Was it displayed on the "Short" thread a few years back, where tempers flared?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jim_Kennedy

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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JNC Lyon

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2012, 03:48:20 PM »
JNC -

Thanks. I enjoyed your piece. Nice job.

My idea of the classic Ross short is the 17th at Seminole. I've seen that type of par 3 on any number of Ross courses. It is not like the 4th at OH West. Smaller green with less internal contour. I wonder if the 4th at OHW type of par 3 - a terrific hole - isn't a bit of an outlier for Ross?


Bob  

Ross definitely didn't build a par three like 4 West on every course.  But that's true of any type of hole for Ross--his body of work is pretty diverse, and he didn't have a tendency to build the same hole over and over.  As I said before though, there are a few par threes (especially in Upstate New York) that utilize the same theme as 4 West.  7 at Teugega, 12 at Brook Lea, and 13 at Oakland Hills all contain the horseshoe feature in the green.  For me, this feature is very similar to the horseshoe features that MacDonald and Raynor used in their Short holes.  Though I'm guessing Ross never said so explicitly, it would appear to me that he borrowed the Short concept for a few of his short par threes.

Of course, if you go around to the other Ross courses in Upstate New York, many do not have a short par three in the "Short " template.  Oak Hill West, Teugega, and Brook Lea do.  CC of Rochester has the 16th, a postage stamp-type green that runs front to back.  8th has the ridgeline 8th.  CC of Buffalo has the two volcano holes.  And Oak Hill East originally had two blind, uphill par threes that played under 150 yards, but with no horseshoe features.  Moral of the story: Ross borrowed the Short template sometimes, but he definitely didn't do it consistently.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JNC Lyon

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2012, 03:56:12 PM »
JNC,
JNC,
Thanks for the enjoyable article.

Here's an old photo of the 12th at Leatherstocking. The green is quite a bit larger than the 6,000 sq.' that remains today. The yardage is in the range of a short. If you enlarge the photo by 400 or 500% you will see that the gents in the photo are standing behind a horseshoe feature, one tall enough to conceal their lower legs.
So, if a huge "Island" green  + short yardage + segmented surface to test putting skills =s the "Short" concept, then this hole fits the bill.  Plus, the description Macdonald used to describe the idea was: "Similar to 5th Brancaster with tee raised so player can see where pin enters hole".  
  


Raynor's "Short" at our course is also a downhill shot, we "fit" the mold in yardage, original size of the green, visible hole/pin, island, but we don't have the segmented putting surface.  



Very cool photo.  What was there originally at Leatherstocking appeared to be a Short hole, but those ripples in the original photo could deceiving.  If you look at current photos, it looks like there are ripples in the green, but it certainly isn't that way on the ground.  Either way, I'd argue that what is there now is not a Short hole (neither is the 5th hole at Yale).  Leatherstocking's 12th is a really cool hole today (I think everyone knows I love Leatherstocking), but it looks like the original was even better.  So was there some MRB influence in the design of Leatherstocking?  Hmm, maybe. It's plausible, considering one of the founding members and consultant was Stephen C. Clark, an NGLA member.  The neighboring 9th looks a bit like a reverse Redan, and you clearly have a Short at the 12th.  However, a lot of that influence has been lost over time.  I'm guessing the holes on the other side of the road were part of the second nine as well, because the first nine was built in 1909, one year before MacDonald built the definitive Short hole at NGLA.

And I agree on the downhill portion as well. Yeamans, NGLA, Hackensack, Fox Chapel, Teugega, and Brook Lea all play downhill.  Oak Hill (West) is slightly uphill from the original tee, but the green contours are very visible there.

As an aside, I said "4th" at Brancaster in the article because the 4th at Brancaster is the short par three in the current configuration.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 04:00:40 PM by JNC Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What a "Short" Hole Really Is.
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2012, 05:10:54 PM »
The timeline in George Bahto's "The Evangelist Of Golf" mentions NGLA's greens as being built a couple of years earlier than '09, and Emmet and Mac were associated by more than the Clark family.

"Shorts" would be much better if the lost elements on the greens were recaptured, but I don't think it strips the holes of their identity.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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