[DMoriarty]

In another thread, Dan Kelly asked:

You're on the 16th tee at Cypress Point. You're 1-up in a match that, for one reason or another, matters to you. Your opponent just won the 15th -- and has the honor on the tee. He (or, of course, she) attempts to drive the 16th, into a two-club wind, and falls short, into the Pacific. You have enough length to reach the green with a purely struck shot -- and probably with a very slightly mishit shot. But any real mishit, and you're wet.

What do you do now?

The answer seems a simple one, to most on this board and off.  "Go for it, of course."  "I am not going to waste my one chance at Cypress laying up."  "I didnt travel 3000 miles to lay up."  "I'm not missing my chance at immortality."   "Does it look like I am wearing a skirt?"    "My friends would never let me live it down, and rightly so."  "Only a Whimp would lay up."  "There's no option here, you've GOT TO GO FOR IT."  Etc.  

I could live with this answer, if it were limited to Cypress.  But unfortunately, as a frequenter of courses with substantially less pedigree, I can tell you that this "do or die" mentality is by no means limited to Cypress.  I've heard similar statements made by players of varying calibers on $20 public dog tracks to $250 CCFADWF (Country Club For A Day Waterfalls.)  Throw in "I didnt pay 50 (20, 200, 75, 64, 33, bucks to lay up" and "I probably cant make it, but I might as well try to play the course THE RIGHT WAY,"  and you get a pretty good idea of the conversation on any tee with any sort of heroic option.  

What many don't realize is that the local CCFAD is Cypress to many or at least as close as they are going to come.  Or, even the local dog track muni is their Cypress.  At least in their minds.  Like a kid in the driveway playing Bob Cousy at the line to win the Championship, they use their imagination to create a Cypress situation whether one exists or not.  

Like it or not, holes like 16 serve as poster children for the rest of golf.  Golfers look at such holes as role models to be emulated, not just in golf, but in life.  You've all seen the corny motivational plaques in airport magazines with pictures of the great scenic golf holes . . . "Motivation . . . " "Determination . . ."  "Will Power . . ."  "Risk Takers . . ."  "Teamwork . . . "

Well . . . I'll bet you never seen one with a motivational picture of CPC 16  reading "Caution . . . those who succeed in life don't take unnecessary chances . . . don't let the heat of the moment overwhelm your reason . . . don't risk it all with little chance of succeeding . . . Use Caution and you will win in the end."[/i]

So, my question:   As great as Cypress 16 is, what detrimental values does it teach golfers about golf?  Here are a few:

1.  The best hole is the most scenic hole.  After all, isnt CPC 16 ultimate in eye candy.  The epitome of signature holes?  Isn't it THE Signature Hole, for ALL OF GOLF?

2.  The best hole is the one that presents the greatest risk.  Sure, it might hurt your score, but golf isnt about winning or scoring low.  It is about the quick thrill.  Who cares if you miss.  Golf at its best is a do-or-die, thrill-seekers game.

3.  The only manly and brave play is the direct route to the hole.  Safe options are for old ladies and cowards.  

Another question:  What other great holes have a detrimental influence on the way golf is played and courses are built?  (For example, the manicured look of Augusta and the  Pine Valley look")

[Jeff Goldman]

17 at Sawgrass.  Now many golfers think the "do or die" island green is the epitome of great golf, whereas I tend to think that the potential recovery shot a golfer may face if he "goes for it" and doesn't make it, or the calculation of "how much more difficult the next shot will be if the golfer plays to the safe part" are integral parts of the game.  Dozens of new courses splatter their advertising with "and the great island green hole x."  Enough is enough.

Jeff Goldman

[Mike Benham]

Another question:  What other great holes have a detrimental influence on the way golf is played and courses are built?  (For example, the manicured look of Augusta and the  Pine Valley look")

Obviously the 17th at TPC Stadium has the same effect as Cypress although there is not opportunity to layup (although I guess you could layup long and left to the 18th fairway ).

Is it the length of Cypress 16 that raises this question of to-go or not-to-go?  What if Cypress 16 was only 150 yrads, would it have the same allure, both photographic and as a challening golf hole?

[TEPaul]

DaveM:

As Shackelford sometimes likes to say "temptation" in architecture can be considered one of its greatest assets. Almost all the reasons you gave for going for #16 Cypress in the situation you gave could be considered various reasons why temptation works so well. In a real risk/reward analysis most if not all of them aren't that smart but many temptations and decisions to go with the high risk play aren't.

But so what really? As you say not many get to play a hole like that much and if the consequences of failure aren't tremendous the thrill of making the play can be wonderful for a long time--and after all that kind of enjoyment is so much of the thrill of golf.

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

What's going on with your play and the choices you make and having to explain it. I can't remember ever having to explain to anyone why I did or didn't do something and certainly never felt the need to have to BS my way out of something--but that could just be because I've probably snuck up on more golf holes before they saw me coming than most any golfer anywhere.

[James Edwards]

Jeff,

What about 16 at Sawgrass?

A well struck tee shot will leave a long iron to this elusive green.  Now would you lay it up with a short iron or decide to give it your best.

I was a fortunate soul who managed to knock it on with a 2iron but anything less than 100% would have been disasterous.

I had travelled a long way to hit that fairway and go for it in two and I wasn't going to bail out.  The same at 11, but with more room for error.

I would say that there is plenty of room in our game for short par 5's with maximum risk, especially at the end of the round.

[TEPaul]

"Kinda like how some people get lost in the NGLA discussions because they have no point of reference."

Shivas:

It's very possible to get lost in NGLA discussions even if you have a really good point of reference, particularly when trying to discuss something about the place with Pat Mucci.

[George Pazin]

Speaking as someone who generally accepts foolish challenges on the golf course, I view it like this:

I am never gonna amount to much as a golfer (unless some miracle happens). These shots are about the only thing I have, outside of a general enjoyment of the game/the day/the course/etc. Why wouldn't I accept this challenge?

I suppose if I had some real stakes on the line - serious money or some ridiculous life altering proposition that is never gonna happen (thankfully), I might do the sensible thing & layup.

I couldn't care less what others think of my decisions on the golf course, that doesn't come into play at all. I generally make solid decisions (I think, JohnV may beg to differ:) ) on the golf course, but when it comes to shots like this, I'm all up for the challenge, regardless of my conversion rate.

P.S. I don't think designs like any of these listed can be blamed for any replication. ANGC for silly conditioning/landscaping, sure, but not these. Hate the player, not the game.

[DMoriarty]

As Shackelford sometimes likes to say "temptation" in architecture can be considered one of its greatest assets. Almost all the reasons you gave for going for #16 Cypress in the situation you gave could be considered various reasons why temptation works so well. In a real risk/reward analysis most if not all of them aren't that smart but many temptations and decisions to go with the high risk play aren't.

TEPaul,

I agree that temptation can be considered one of golf's greatest assets.  In fact, I might put temptation at the top of the list, and definitely consider 16 the best hole I have ever played.

But I wonder if "temptation" has lost some of its meaning, and if the word "temptation" is still descriptive of a hole like CPC 16.  Is it really "temptation" if there is absolutely no conscious decisionmaking process, but instead only a unconquerable carnal desire to go for it.  It is as if many of us are playing a game that is more suited for the X-games than the green.

Look at it this way.  For most of these guys, it doesnt matter where there is a safe route or not.  They could care less, because they aren't even capable of considering such a route.  If anything, the only purpose the safe route serves is to enhance the story after the heroic carry is tempted.  

But in order for there to be "temptation" don't we at least have to consider the merits of the other route?

-David

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

DMoriarty,

The answer to your question depends upon the golfer's ability to accurately assess his/her abilities in light of the situation at hand.

# 16 at CPC comes at a point in the round where reflection upon the previous 15 holes should provide a fairly accurate picture of how you've been playing so far.  Are you striking the ball solidly, are you hitting it accurately, what's your ball flight characteristics today, what's the wind condition, heaviness of the air (fog, rain, dry) ?  Can you easily take the Ocean out of play ??
Based on a re-examination of the day's play, one should be able to make a prudent decision with respect to the play of the hole.

But, two other factors must be considered,
1 your opponent hit first, and failed.
2 how important is this match to you ?

The smart play is favoring the left side or laying up.

It's one thing to posture in cyberspace, it's quite another when it's your turn to play in an important match on a difficult hole, and your opponent has hit it in the ocean and has to re-tee from the tee.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

I wholly agree.  

If golf has any strategic meaning, and a course can offer varied avenues where strategy can be exercised, then it seems to me that the thinking golfer would always want to be paired in a match against the man who finds that his testosterone and ego-gratification doesn't permit him to avoid temptation at poor odds.

[DMoriarty]

Mike and Patrick.  You guys both paint a picture where the golfer is actually weighing his options.  

For the majority of the golfers I've seen, your picture is a fantasy.  I just don't think most golfers play the way you describe.  

Think about it:  

1. The danger at CPC is so apparent it can slap you in the face (literally.)  Yet it is almost impossible to get people to even consider the safe route.  

2. Now move to some other hole where the danger is not so apparent. Think of 10 at Riviera.  Quite a few golfers do the same thing.  In his new book Geoff talks about seeing players who have played the course 100s of times still go for the green at their peril!  Is the modern golfer really thinking about options?  

3.  Taking a slightly different approach, think of all the recent posts insisting that for the long hitter strategy is dead. Just hit it hard enough and angle doesnt matter.  No amount of reason will convince some otherwise.  This is not thinking golf, it is driving range golf.  

Shivas recently informed me that I was wrong for assuming that golf was a game that took brains.  While I disagree with him, I think he accurately represents the modern view of golf, and of much of golf architecture.

[DMoriarty]

George's post above also represents what I would consider to be the prevailing view.  

Why not go for it?  What does it matter anyway?  I've got nothing to lose.  But if enough think this way, then there is something to lose:  The essence of the game.   If you take strategic thought out of golf, you might as well adjourn to the driving range.  

P.S. I don't think designs like any of these listed can be blamed for any replication. ANGC for silly conditioning/landscaping, sure, but not these.

George.  I don't blame these great holes.  I just wish those copying them would focus more on the golf and less on the scenery.  

Hate the player, not the game.

The player is the game.

[ChipOat]

Shivas:

Ah HAH!  So you'd bail out left if the match REALLY mattered in terms of $$$ or tournament prestige.

Thus, the real question is to define "matters".

How about if it was a four-ball or foursome match and you had your partner's feelings on the matter to consider?  Would it matter if your partner was an obnoxious pain who you didn't want to make angry versus a really nice guy whose reaction wouldn't intimidate you if you followed your opponent into the agua?

For me, I'm bailing left under all circumstances unless the match is a friendly singles game for some token amount.  If it's a tournament or I have a partner or the do-re-mi is meaningful (and I have a low pain threshold there) then the 5 iron can't come out fast enough.

Look at it architecturally, which was the major point of your initial post.  Dr. Mac didn't put the option of going left in place without a good reason.  If the Lord hadn't intended that option to exist, he'd have had Pete Dye born 100 years earlier.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Shivas,

I say you won't.

Your match, is the semi-finals of the U.S. Mid-Amateur, and if you win, you're in the finals against TEPaul.

Now, tell me again, what will you do.

DMoriarty,

I agree, the hazard faced at # 16 is hard to miss, and sometimes temptation and ego form an interesting and irresistable mix.  But, most golfers recognize that like Tin Cup, #16 can be a phone number on their score card.

# 10 at Riviera is another matter, the hazards are more benign, and with the advent of super-wedges, the bunkers at
# 10 are less effective then when they were created, which I believe pre-dated the revolutionary invention known as the sand-wedge.  

I would hazard a guess that # 16 at CPC a par 3 produces higher average scores than # 10 at Riviera, a par 4.
And, with that diminished threat, more golfers attempt heroic play, either for the fun of it, ego, or ignorance.

[Mike Hendren]

Shivas, I've got your back on this one.  Through the largesse of one the great gentlemen in the treehouse, I had the privilege (in the truest sense of the word) to walk CPC earlier this year.  Through the gracious gesture of the playing foursome I was handed a driver, ball and tee on the 16th tee.  Through a miracle, I hit a career shot with a slight draw that was pushed in the front bunker by a stout wind coming from two o'clock.  

I suspect it will always be the most memorable golf shot I ever strike.  Long after I would have spent any winnings, lost any trophy or forgotten any match the memory will remain as long as my faculties are in tact.  It's just as vivid this minute as it was when I picked the tee up off the ground.  

Regards,

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Mike Hendren,

Great shot, but, it was no different than walking by a driving range and being given the same opportunity to hit one.
The terrain was just a little different  

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick,

Is it possible that Rich Goodale is channeling through your keyboard?

Mike

[George Pazin]

Why not go for it?  What does it matter anyway?  I've got nothing to lose.  But if enough think this way, then there is something to lose:  The essence of the game.   If you take strategic thought out of golf, you might as well adjourn to the driving range.

I fail to see this leap. Just because most golfers don't play for serious stakes & view opportunities like this as once in a lifetime doesn't mean that the option isn't there. I'd bet if the Crosby were still played there & the conditions & circumstances were right, we'd see more than a few layups.

Additionally, well designed holes like the 16th offer the opportunity for older members to make the sensible choice.

Heck, if I were a member, I'd probably layup every now & then just to see if I could get up & down for par. Sometimes I try to play holes on my home course differently just for the hell of it. Doesn't anyone else?

I don't think the game is losing out because most people avail themselves of the opportunity to hit a memorable shot.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

George Pazin,

It's quite possible that you'll see the pros again on this hole at the AT&T or whatever it's called.

I believe a vote will be taken soon to determine if CPC will be one of the venues for the tournament.

[Mike Benham]

Haven't the all the above comments just certified that the 16th at Cypress is the greatest match play hole anywhere?

[ChipOat]

Shivas:

If TEPaul throws a shoe the next day, you're in The Masters.

Maybe a 7 iron instead of the 5?

[Mike Benham]

One of the key attributes in match play is honors, and being able to take that advantage and hit a tee ball that causes your opponent to change or maybe even think about changing, their strategy on their tee shot.

So, with honors, your choice is extremely variable.  If you are 1-down, maybe you layup left and hope that your opponent screws up.

If you are 1-up, maybe you pull driver, make the other side, and force your opponent to match the club selection.

If you are 2 or 3-down, do you play left, and hope that your opponent go for it because that may be the only chance that you have to continue the match ...

If you are 2 or 3-up, you go for the death blow ...

You're right, the tee shot dictates the course of events, which is why it is a great match play hole ...

[Mike Hendren]

Mike Benham,

The players with honors has a distinct advantage.  Does this then make the 15th at CPC pivotal?

Regards,

Mike

[Bob_Huntley]

I doubt that CPC will return to the rota at the A.T.&T.

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