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Ryan Kelly

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Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2011, 09:58:49 PM »
John, don't know if you have kids, but there is a great lesson to be learned from this story, especially if you have kids.  I know that I will share it with my 2 teenage sons who both play the game.  Unfortunately, there aren't too many sports as honorable as golf any more and there aren't to many good lessons coming out of modern sport.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2011, 10:20:30 PM »
There is more honor, facially at least, in this game because the nature of the violation process is that we are all conditioned to rat ourselves out. Which ain't easy. But it's right. And there's a lesson to be taught in that. But it is a game. It is only a game. If you want to use the game to reinforce morality with your kids, that strikes me as fine, but the guilt that this caller felt is a hair shirt best worn by the golf version of opus dei. I wouldn't try to impose that kind of guilt on a kid or applaud it as an adult. It's a little creepy.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2011, 11:49:37 PM »
a hair shirt best worn by the golf version of opus dei.

Quote of the year by the honorable Lavin maybe?

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2011, 12:54:02 AM »
Interesting story and a testament perhaps more to how people review their lives when faced with the end than anything else.

I have just returned from a large medical convention, much of which was concerned with haematological cancers, and I didn't hear any papers on associations between cancers and guilt, golf (cheating or not), being a Catholic or an Irishman. Perhaps these are areas for future research.

There are some well known lifestyle and medical associations with pancreatic cancer, so responsible factors more likely to be one of those.



Declaration of Interest: Raised Catholic but gave up it. Still Irish, though. Had a little look at my own mortality recently too. No admissions of cheating at golf to make.  
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 12:57:23 AM by Martin Toal »

Stuart Goldstein

Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2011, 11:21:07 AM »
http://www.myavidgolfer.com/blog/

Picked-up by another site.  Going viral.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2011, 11:27:27 AM »
http://www.myavidgolfer.com/blog/

Picked-up by another site.  Going viral.

much "better than caffeine"
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2011, 11:39:07 AM »
Nothing like a death bed confession going viral.  I guess the guy is getting what he deserves.

Pete Blaisdell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2011, 11:50:19 AM »
John
 I find your post to be offensive unless I misinterpret your point. Could you enlighten me, please?
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2011, 12:17:21 PM »
John
 I find your post to be offensive unless I misinterpret your point. Could you enlighten me, please?

Well, this thread has weighed heavy on my mind and it is my opinion that you crossed the line posting the confession on the internet.  Sorry if you find my opinion offensive.  It is now only a matter of time before this man is outed to his friends.  I don't think that was his point in calling you.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 12:19:27 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2011, 12:19:40 PM »
I cheated in 1975 at the State Insurors Youth Classic at Riverbend Country Club in Shebyville, Tennessee.  I hit my approach to the first green way right, likely OB.  I declared a provisional which I stiffed.  I found the first ball barely in bounds but in a horrible lie.  I declared it unplayable, played the OB provisional and made 5.  My playing partners said nary a word but a group on the next tee mocked me.  I just didn't know the rule - but also didn't bother following up after the round, which wound up being a guilt-laden 85 after my first day 75 left me a couple of shots off the lead.  

Like the time we got arrested in high school for water-ballooning an old gentlemen in a phonebooth on the town square (the police report read "four white dudes in a brown Oldsmobile drove by and shot at me"), I don't feel any guilt over the incident.  Just part of the learning and discernment processes.  

The fact that I remember this ethical lapse while having forgotten so many others of greater import and impact doesn't say anything about the game of golf but it does say a lot about me - that I very much continue to be a work in progress.  

Mike



Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Pete Blaisdell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2011, 12:35:59 PM »
John
  The only person who knows this man's name is me and it's not going anywhere.

  The only reason I posted this was to present a true human interest situation for the members of GCA to consider.No name involved.

  If you feel I crossed the line, you're entitled to your opinion. I sleep good at night.I did the best I could with a difficult situation that presented itself out of the blue. I feel you and a couple of others have twisted this into something it isn't.

  Your opinion is so noted.
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2011, 12:46:37 PM »
John
  The only person who knows this man's name is me and it's not going anywhere.

  The only reason I posted this was to present a true human interest situation for the members of GCA to consider.No name involved.

  If you feel I crossed the line, you're entitled to your opinion. I sleep good at night.I did the best I could with a difficult situation that presented itself out of the blue. I feel you and a couple of others have twisted this into something it isn't.

  Your opinion is so noted.

Pete there's no reason you should not sleep at night. John is gripping on to straws for as long as possible.

I for one thank you for sharing the story. I also commend you for being cautious not to list particular details in order to protect the privacy of the gentleman who called you.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2011, 12:51:35 PM »
Pete,

There are only 35,000 people who die from pancreatic cancer each year.  I have golfed at a level where I could play in qualifiers for over 30 years and know of every golfer in my area of the same skill level.  If this story does go viral someone will eventually put the pieces together and figure out who this man is, or worse, falsely accuse a man who is dying.  The sample size of one time fine golfers dying of pancreatic cancer is too small to think he will remain anonymous.


Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2011, 01:05:51 PM »
On the South Side of Chicago, we would simply conclude that this guy is "axing" for it, even though he may not have foreseen the exact vehicle for transmission of the heart-rending details of his deathbed unburdening.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2011, 05:30:32 PM »
Pete-I can`t imagine when you posted this that you had any inkling that it would travel outside the umbrella of GCA. That said I think it would really be a shame if this got back to the individual,his family or circle of friends. After all when you go into the confessional it`s with the understanding that it`s for you and the padre`s ears only. Given what has transpired I wonder if it wasn`t better left between the gentlemen,his wife and yourself. As far as this being used as a life lesson for a kid I don`t think I feel the need to tell it to my 16 year old son who by the way plays junior golf.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 05:33:11 PM by Tim Martin »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2011, 10:46:04 PM »
Given what has transpired I wonder if it wasn`t better left between the gentlemen,his wife and yourself.

+1.  Seems like a very personal issue.  I hope Pete at least checked with the gentleman or his wife prior to turning the story into national news.

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2011, 11:08:24 PM »
I just hope well for everyone  ;D
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 11:16:18 PM by Frank Mastroianni »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2011, 01:43:01 AM »
An interesting back story to all this is how great a guy Pete appears to be.  I had never heard of him before today but found this interesting profile.  He is obviously a great asset to the game.

http://www.keene.edu/newsevents/default.cfm?Type=NewsDetail&News_ID=1926

Pete Blaisdell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2011, 06:54:07 AM »
Gentlemen:
    Let me be very clear about this situation. When I act, speak or write, I have thought about it. People who know me can tell you I don't act on emotion and just pop off with an opinion.I am very careful. I was brought by my father who was the greatest man I ever knew who did more in his lifetime to justify his time on this planet than any ten people I know combined.Very compassionate human being.
    I took great pains to protect this gentleman when I disclosed this situation.I felt it was a great life lesson and one that was important to share.I did not disclose certain parts of the conversation in order to protect the man's privacy.I did include a couple of items for misdirection purposes in order to throw off any budding " Sherlock Holmes "out there. These items were trivial and did nothing to add to the power of the situation. I have a long history of dealing with the media as my father's chief of staff. I am well versed in their tactics. Guys, I just didn't get off the boat.
    I'm fine with what I did in sharing this story. This man will not be embarrassed or ridiculed. Took guts to do what he did. I can understand his actions from my own personal experience of spending 3 weeks in Illinois Masonic Hospital in Chicago in 1982. I was given last rites and they flew my wife to Chicago in a private plane because They thought I was going to die. I weighed 118 pounds and was bleeding out. They gave me enough morphine to kill a horse but my mind worked and I can understand the " phone call " better than most. I will again address this situation at the appropriate time.
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2011, 01:44:24 PM »
Isn't it funny how confession is so often discussed in terms of the well advertised Catholic ritual.  As many of my non-Catholic friends will tell you, it is quite the treat.  Lucky us.  I've spent the last couple of days thinking about the rite of confession and how it applies to golfers and everyone in general.  I found this tid bit, I hate to confess on Wikipedia, that relates well to the topic at hand.

Judaism, confession (Hebrew וִדּוּי Widduy; Viddui) is a step in the process of atonement during which a Jew admits to committing a sin before God. In sins between a Jew and God, the confession must be done without others present (The Talmud calls confession in front of another a show of disrespect). On the other hand, confession pertaining to sins done to another person are permitted to be done publicly, and in fact Maimonides calls such confession "immensely praiseworthy".
The confession of a sin in itself does not bring immediate forgiveness, but rather it marks a point in time after which a person's demonstration of the recognition and avoidance of similar future transgressions show whether he or she has truly recovered from the sin and therefore whether he or she deserves forgiveness for it.

followed by this on Deathbed Confession:

The Talmud[10] teaches that “if one falls sick and his life is in danger, he is told: “Make confession, for all who are sentenced to death make confession.”” Masechet Semachot[11] adds that “When someone is approaching death, we tell him to confess before he dies, adding that on the one hand, many people confessed and did not die, whilst on the other, there are many who did not confess and died, and there are many who walk in the street and confess; because on the merit of confession you will live.” Similar language is employed in the Shulchan Aruch’s codification where it is ruled that the following text should be recited to the terminally ill: “Many have confessed but have not died; and many who have not confessed died. And many who are walking outside in the marketplace confess. By the merit of your confession, you shall live. And all who confess have a place in the World-to-Come.”[12]
The patient is then to recite the deathbed Viduy. There is an abbreviated form[13] intended for those in a severely weakened state and an elongated form,[14] “obviously if the sick person wishes to add more to his confession – even the Viduy of Yom Kippur – he is permitted to do so”.[15] Afterwards it is also encouraged for the patient to recite the Shema, enunciate acceptance of the Thirteen Principles of Faith and to donate some money to charity.

The entire article can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession_in_Judaism

I have always found Judaism much cooler than Catholicism and would be interested in what we can learn about this incident.  My favorite quote from above is that (The Talmud calls confession in front of another a show of disrespect).  I don't that applies here because the golfer did sin against Pete by lying to his face.  Sadly I do believe the golfer once again harmed Pete by making the call.  The question is, would he have done a better service to himself and Pete by confessing just to God and himself.  Obviously yes.

The second aspect of this is what would you do if you were the playing partner that called the infraction and was shot down.  I take it that he signed the scorecard that day and did not go to great pains telling everyone the guy was a cheat.  In other words, he was a better man than me.  This is where the story will get interesting and a hero may emerge that can teach future golfers.  I hope we hear from him.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2011, 02:32:16 PM »
If we hear from the playing partner, then all hope for anonymity is lost. If, at all, we wish to preserve anonymity.

Only Pete can say for certain if he was once again harmed or offended by the golfer and his revelation. Since Pete was unaware that the golfer was lying initially, was Pete initially harmed? The other golfer might have been, but Pete?

Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2011, 03:48:50 PM »
If we hear from the playing partner, then all hope for anonymity is lost. If, at all, we wish to preserve anonymity.

Only Pete can say for certain if he was once again harmed or offended by the golfer and his revelation. Since Pete was unaware that the golfer was lying initially, was Pete initially harmed? The other golfer might have been, but Pete?



I wish I would have had you as a teacher in High School.  If a student successfully plagiarizes himself to an A in your class do you really believe that age old wisdom that he only is hurting himself?  How can the sin be worse than the crime if no one is harmed?  What would be anyones motivation to not lie if the only harm is in getting caught?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2011, 04:14:03 PM »
So you're saying you got caught plagiarizing, John? Or that you wish you would have done more of it? I have no idea what you do for a living, but _____________________________________ (this part was communicated to John via PM.)

If you understand what I wrote, you understand that I did not suggest that no one got hurt. How can one be hurt if one is unaware? I don't know if Pete shook the dust off his hands and considered the matter closed (to be revisited just recently) or if he was nagged by a suspicion that the fellow was lying, or something in between the two. What I do know is, the other competitor knew that the fellow had cheated and so, was hurt by the cheater's actions. And yet, ultimately, the other fellow knew that Pete had to rule the way he ruled, since there was no other evidence beyond what either player attested.

If one suggests that, in a cosmic, spiritual way, we are all hurt by all transgressions, fine.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

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