[Mac Plumart]

I'll take 8 great holes over 18 so-so ones.  But, that is just my opinion.  The par of the course doesn't matter to me.  The distance doesn't matter to me.  The number of holes doesn't matter to me.  The adventure, the fun, the experience, the joy...that is what matters to me.  And, no, I don't care for tournament golf.  I don't care for stroke play.  If I compete at golf, it is match play.  

[Duncan Cheslett]

In the original post Mr. Nicklaus says a family man can't make it home in time for lunch.  That's not because there are too many holes to be played; it's because his golf course tolerates slow play, likely in the gentleman's own group!

Slow play isn't the issue here. An 18 hole round of golf at a local course takes up at least four hours of your day even if you're in a quick group when you take into account travelling, signing in, changing shoes etc. If this was reduced to under three hours then more people would be encouraged to participate and the image of golf would benefit immensely.

I don't think most avid golfers realise what a terrible image the game has in the minds of very many non-golfers. They think we're all a bunch of rich pampered selfish layabouts who are neglecting their family and/or work commitments. The fact that a game takes half a day does nothing but feed this predjudice.

At the time that 18 holes was adopted as the standard (for reasons relating to professional competitions, not social golf) most golfers were the retard third sons of baronets who would never have to do a days work in their lives. The world has changed immensely since then, and all I'm saying is that the 18 hole standard is not necessarly relevent any more and certainly shouldn't be clung onto as some kind of holy relic.

Hats off to Melvyn for speaking up for the tradition of golf over the inclination to convenience the modern player.  A round of golf is eighteen holes long.

A tradition that is 130 years old in a game that has been played for 500 years. Golf courses were of varying numbers of holes for a lot longer than they have been standardised at 18 holes...



...so who is the traditionalist?

[Jason Topp]

I would think people interested in a 12 hole course play 9 today or at least have the option to do so. I would guess a 12 hole course would yield less revenue without a corresponding savings in costs for a golf course.

[Sean_A]

I am not sure 12 hole courses are the way forward, but I think it is ideal to have a hole come back to the house around #5 -7 or 12-14.  A short, medium and long route are then available.  Although, on the public side, three sets of 6 holes sounds very appealing to me. 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Duncan,

So for any golfer aged under 130 years, 18 holes is all they have ever known?

Some of the arguments are fine in theory, and my club currently has only 15 holes during redevelopment and it hasn't been so bad -- especially for the shorter round times (3h15 instead of 4h30) -- but I'm not sure there will ever be a significant movement for 12-hole courses.

[Tony Ristola]

12-holes WILL become acceptable en masse, when The Open is competed over 12-holes.

[Duncan Cheslett]

How many Saturday morning club tennis matches are competed over 5 sets?

Or amateur boxing bouts fought over 15 rounds?

What's the professional game got to do with weekend club players?

[Mark Pearce]

How many Saturday morning club tennis matches are competed over 5 sets?

Modern tennis tournaments tend to last a week and are played in 3 set matches.  Only the Grand Slams are two weeks and 5 sets.  All US PGA Tour and European Tour events are 72 holes over 4 days.  Neitehr club tennis or club golf follows either pattern.

Or amateur boxing bouts fought over 15 rounds?

None of the boxing bodies (and there seem to be dozens) still have 15 round fights.  12 is standard.  And top level amateurs fight over 3 or 4 rounds at most, even in the Olympics.

What's the professional game got to do with weekend club players?

It's still the most likely source of inspiration for those seeking to take up the game.  Other than that, no more and no less than it had 50 years ago.  18 holes became the standard well before we had professional tours on television.  Professional golf is NOT why 18 holes is standard.

[Lester George]

Our plan for the Dormie Club's practice facility is for a 10 reversible course.  70 acres.  Clockwise it's par 37, Counter-clockwise it's par 36.  Should take about 90 minutes to play (walking). 

Lester

[Paul OConnor]

At Olympia Fields North, and with no contrived long walks between holes, one can easily play courses of between 2 and 18 holes, starting on the 1st and ending on either the 9th or 18th.  It's helpful if no one else is on the course.

2 Holes - 1,9
3 Holes - 1,11,18
4 Holes - 1,2,8,9
5 Holes - 1,2,8,11,18
6 Holes - 1,2,3,7,8,9
7 Holes - 1,2,3,6,7,8,9
8 Holes - 1,2,3,4,5,7,8,9
9 Holes - 1-9
10 Holes - 1-8,11,18
11 Holes - 1,11-18,10,9
12 Holes - 1-9,10,11,18
13 Holes - 1,2,3,7,8,9,10-13,16-18
14 Holes - 1,2,3,6-13,16,17,18
15 Holes - 1,2,3,7-18
16 Holes - 1,2,3,6-18
17 Holes - 1-5,7-18
18 Holes - 1-18

In my opinion, one of the reasons the routing of OFCC North is so brilliant.

[Brent Hutto]

There are two fairly common course lengths in the USA. Eighteen holes and nine holes. I see eighteen hole rounds (and courses) as far, far more popular than the nine-hole alternative. It's purely speculative to think there's a Magic Number of twelve or thirteen holes that would be comparable in popularity to the usual eighteen.

If someone doesn't want to be the four, five, six hours total time involved in driving to the course and playing eighteen they can usually opt for three or four hours total to only play nine. Yet what proportion of rounds in the USA are nine holes? Maybe a third? Quarter? Even fewer than that?

I think it's easy to spin scenarios such as some guy who requires 5.5 hours to drive to the course and play eighteen but if he could do it in 4 hours he'd be home in time for the kids to get off school or something like that. But overall there's no number that makes more sense, more of the time than any other. I mean it's probably not often worth traveling to the course to play four holes and not many people have the time or stamina to play forty holes but in between those extremes I just fail to see a natural cut point (less than 18) where it suddenly makes sense for people to take up the game.

And goodness knows if someone has never taken up golf by playing nine holes they aren't going to take it up just because they can play twelve or six. Where's the evidence for any number being hugely preferable to another?

[Mike_DeVries]

An interesting topic and one that was bandied about for a project I was talking with some people about in the early-mid 2000's.  I think the biggest obstacle to such a concept gaining support is that it is not the norm and would be controversial.  Private clubs that have multiple hole options in their routing are great for members and that may be a selling point for being a member -- you don't have to pay to play only a few holes, you can go for a walk with your dog or grandkids (or both) while playing a few holes, etc.  Adding a short course to a facility that already has a full "big" course is also easier than just a short course alone.  How about a "junior starter course" or short 3-hole loop on the practice facility?  Those are more common or fill a specific need - like the short course in the practice range and the new 13-hole course at Bandon (which just happens to have a captive, golf-crazy crowd going to its destination).

I think on the public side, having three 6-hole loops might be interesting and viable in some places.  It affords flexibility in course set-up and organization, such as 9-hole leagues and 6-hole leagues on different nights -- reaching a broader spectrum of people.  That might be a way to bring about change in an area and give a course an edge in a market.

Of course, the big issue is quality golf is still going to reign supreme.  How many people on here would rather play the Dunes Club or Whitinsville than some ordinary country club?  I like good, solid golf over anything else.

[Mac Plumart]

Of course, the big issue is quality golf is still going to reign supreme.  How many people on here would rather play the Dunes Club or Whitinsville than some ordinary country club?  I like good, solid golf over anything else.


Moi aussi.

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