[Willie_Dow]

The agronomy article by Jerry Potter, page 4F (good description of location), says it all!  His quote by Jon Scott, Tour's VP "Our goal is to provide a consistency of conditions.  We're reducing the risk of a 'rub of the green' penalty to the extent that weather and resources allow us.  We cannot put a dome over 100 acres of a golf course.  There will always be a degree of inconsistency in golf.  We don't play on artificial turf in a domed stadium because golf was not meant to be played that way."
His closing remark is our only window of opportunity!
Willie

[Doug Wright]

Willie,

Remember your mantra:

"The TOUR is not golf, The TOUR is not golf, The TOUR is not golf, The TOUR is not golf..."  

[John_McMillan]

I'm not sure what to make of the post.  Are you arguing that all conditioning is bad?  Should we undo all irrigation, and play courses under their natural amount of rainfall?  How would you respond to Bobby Jones, who wrote in 1932 -

"I think one of our greatest needs is a fairway grass or treatment which will make the ground in front of our putting greens more reliable.  If the greens themselves are maintained in a firmer condition, the need must arise on occasion to drop the ball short of the putting surface, allowing it to roll the remaining distance.  I know of very few courses where this is possible without great uncertainty."  

I think that one of the paradoxes of modern architecture is that the very advances that Jones hoped for led instead of more "run-up" golf to more "forced-carry" golf.  I think the problem of the paradox is more with the designs than with the technology.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

No John , it is the WHOLE system.

"Elimination of the Rub of the Green" is a perfect example of Man's inborn need to designate and organize the Game further into an oblivion.

All of it is infinitely connected. Every bit of it.

From the TV, to the Tour, to the Tour Players, To Augusta, To the poor Superintendent that has to maintain conditons just like it. To the Golf Players who demand it. To the Eco Terrorists that feel that it is in our best interests.

It is all connected. Every bit of it.

Great post Willie, Great post!

[Rich_Goodale]

This is a hornet's nest, Willie, but thanks for stirring it up!  I would guess that for every Tommy on this site who loves the random nature of golf there are an equal number of John Scott's (or his fellow travellers).

I'm on your and Tommy's side on this one, but who is that uncertainty-phobic guy Bobby Jones that John quoted?  Surely not the same one who loved and claimed to have learned much from the Old Course?

[Jim_Kennedy]

What I don't understand is someone in his position linking "rub of the green" to conditions. A "rotg" only occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency.

[Dan King]

It's a shame, but hardly surprising, that someone from the PGA Tour® wouldn't understand a golf term such as rub of the green.

I'm still hopeful that some day soon the Tour will get away from all that yucky inconsistencies and just play virtual golf. That would leave the courses to us, and remove their evil influence from golf course architecture.

"However unlucky you may be, it really is not fair to expect your adversary's grief for your undeserved misfortunes to be as poignant as your own."
  --Horace Hutchinson  (Hints on Golf)

[Kevin_Reilly]

Another example is David Duval's reason to skip the Pebble Beach tourney this year...he doesn't like the "bumpy" greens. Forget the fact that it is the same for everyone.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/04/SP239199.DTL

[Willie_Dow]

Could Jon be saying that "rub of the green" occurs because of inconsistency?  I agree, this is very far fetched.

[John_McMillan]

Tommy -

Re-reading the quote, I don't see the advocation of an elimination of "rub of the green."  In fact, Scott seems to concede that it is not possible, and the goal instead seems to be its minimization.  

How would you reply to Jones, who felt that creating greater consistency in areas around the green was necessary to encourage more "ground play?"

[Jim_Kennedy]

We don't know the conditions that Jones was speaking to. They could be irregularities of surface or different degrees of firmness.
If greens were maintained in firmer conditions, as Jones suggested, we would probably have seen less courses built for the air ball, not more. The running shot would be needed to play a firm course and dart throwing would probably never have gained so much popularity. We would see much more creativity on the part of architects as they would be forced to incorporate imaginative terrains for approaches. Players would object less to crazy bounces if they were given more bounces in a round. Players would need to use their imaginations more, too, and golf would be a healthier animal for it. Too bad that chance was missed.  

[Willie_Dow]

Have you noticed any difficulty with your response to this thread?  I have and I don't know why!
Willie

[TEPaul]

You all should not bring "Rub of the green" into this subject and discussion. I think you're confusing "rub of the green" with inconsistency of surface or random bounces on the ground. It is not that! "Rub of the green" is basically a golf rules term involving "outside agencies" of which the ground itself is not one.

Bobby Jones in that statement does not appear to me to be advocating the elimination of odd, random or inconsistent bounces in golf on approaches or elsewhere. All Jones seems to be speaking of is a logical condition of maintenance to accomplish a particular "playability". I've seen that quote of his before and it might be a bit out of context on this thead or that post it appears in. Jones was really only talking about overwatering--over irrigation!

He thought it was illogical to have a very firm green and a very soft overirrigated approach. His point was; what it a golfer to do with an extremely firm green if he can't hit it and hold it? The answer is keep the approach as firm as possible so the golfer can run the ball onto the firm green.

And he did say that this is the way it is in Europe but that American courses are getting away from that. His message was that American courses should try from maintenance (approaches) more like Europe's.

This was all probably part of his fascinationg with TOC and one of the reasons he wanted to design his course to be more like it in a strategic sense.

[ed_getka]

Tommy,
"To the EcoTerrorists that feel it is in our best interests". I'm not sure what you mean by that statement and was wondering if you could expand on that thought.

[John_McMillan]

TEP -

The references to "rub of the green" are introduced in the original quote - which I agree uses the term in a manner not consistent with its definition in the USGA Rules of Golf.

However, with Jones quote, I disagree with your contention that he only means to talk about watering areas in front of the green.  The context of the quote is Jones discussion of what he views as over-watering the putting surfaces, resulting in their too soft playing conditions.  However, that Jones was very specific in the rest of his article in referring to over-watering, and does not use that term in the quote provided, leads me to conclude that he is refering to something besides watering.  The terms he uses - "fairway grass or treatment" suggest something other than or in addition to watering practices.  He also refers to areas becoming more "reliable."  Bobby Jones was a Harvard educated lawyer, and was very precise in the language he chose to use in his writings.  That he could have, but did not, use terms which make specific reference to watering or softness leads me to conclude he has another idea in mind.

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