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Mac Plumart

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2011, 08:29:31 AM »
I've heard these comments about the greens at Crystal.  How does that make for "great" golf?  I don't get that.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Dustin Ferrell

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2011, 08:45:08 AM »
I've heard these comments about the greens at Crystal.  How does that make for "great" golf?  I don't get that.

For me it wasn't every hole where the green speed seemed too fast as all the greens aren't as severly sloped as those of say no.1 or no.17(i think that was really brutal too, unless I'm thinking of a different hole).  Also the day I was there was really windy, not sure it would be the same on a more benign day.

Also, pointing out anything on the course is really just nit-picking as it truly is a great place.  Really have to think on all your shots and hit all the clubs in your bag to get around.  Just get the feeling a little that some of the greens weren't designed w/ 12+ type speeds in mind, as I'm sure most courses built in the golden era weren't.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 08:46:50 AM by Dustin Ferrell »

George Freeman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2011, 09:33:23 AM »


This fairway width looks relatively narrow; the width of the rough toward the native grasses looks quite wide.

Can anyone discuss why this fairway shouldn't be mown closer -- much closer -- to the native grasses?

Phil - I completely agree that it looks like they should widen the fairway by about 5 paces on each side.  However, in my limited experience with the course, the first cut of rough was extremely playable and not thick/inhibiting in the least.  The gunch/long grass is another story all together though...
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Tim Bert

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2011, 09:34:38 AM »
Tom D - I don't understand the comment about it being hard to fault what they are doing if the course was more fun to play 10 years ago.  Why can't you praise the course and find fault simultaneously?  It has certainly never been like you to hold back some constructive criticism.  If the fairways were wider, the first cut of rough were narrower, the fairways ran into the bunkers, and the green speeds were just a tad bit more manageable, then the place would be absolutely amazing.  I know you think it is already amazing, and it is in many respects, but the way those changes would strengthen the golf course feel very obvious waking around the property.

George Freeman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2011, 09:51:45 AM »
Thanks for starting another (what appears to be) great photo thread, Mark!

I'll add some pics here and there if you don't mind.  Can't have too many, can you? :)

The fairway almost looks wider in this photo...  circa 2009







Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Tom_Doak

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2011, 11:05:16 AM »
Tom D - I don't understand the comment about it being hard to fault what they are doing if the course was more fun to play 10 years ago.  Why can't you praise the course and find fault simultaneously?  It has certainly never been like you to hold back some constructive criticism.  If the fairways were wider, the first cut of rough were narrower, the fairways ran into the bunkers, and the green speeds were just a tad bit more manageable, then the place would be absolutely amazing.  I know you think it is already amazing, and it is in many respects, but the way those changes would strengthen the golf course feel very obvious waking around the property.

Tim:

Well, we aren't usually talking about my home club here, and one where I really [sadly] have no influence in the decision-making.

98% of the members and visitors would tell you that the grass is perfect and it would be crazy to suggest doing anything differently, so my thoughts on the set-up really wouldn't get very far anyway.  But, to clarify for Adam [who gets my meaning wrong about 50% of the time], I meant that for my tastes the bluegrass rough is a bit too thick. 

Originally, the whole course was gang-mowed, and there was no definition at all between fairway and rough.  Those 30-yard-wide fairways are not what the doctor ordered, but up until 10-15 years ago the fairway size didn't matter much, because you had a good lie if you hit it in the fairway OR the first cut of rough.  There wasn't much definition between the two, except in a wet year.  Now, the definition is there, and I'm just one of those rare guys who thinks more definition is bad.

Everybody here says to widen the fairways, but if we widened the fairways I'd be paying more dues.  I just wish they wouldn't have started manicuring the bluegrass ... then we'd have had the same effect, but it would have cost LESS and not MORE to get it.




Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2011, 11:09:00 AM »
TD graciously invited me up there to play a few years ago.  There aren't too many places in golf where your first view of the first hole tells you right off that this is someplace truly special.  One of the best first holes ever.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2011, 11:17:46 AM »
Mark - thanks for this thread.  Your first post was interesting to me because you started it in exactly the way I would have - wth photos of what you can see of the golf course from the first and ninth tees.  That's the first thing I mentioned to someone after my one and only play there -- that I was completely smitten by the fact that I could see so much of the course from those two spots.  I still don't know why this seems so important to me -- but I think it's because that quality of 'expansive compactness' is so rare in my experience.  I don't know how one could fit so much golf course into a smallish space you can scan from one tee, and yet never have the golfer on any hole feel that he is cramped or too close to another golfer/hole.  If that's not routing genius I don't know what is.

Peter


Jim Eder

Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2011, 12:20:27 PM »
Mark,

Great thread and awesome photgraphy.  I so agree with you, it plays much longer than the yardage suggests.  Such a tremendous golf course, I just love it.  Thanks for doing such an incredible thread, looking forward to learning more things and looking at the beautiful photography you have taken.  Thanks!!

Phil McDade

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2011, 12:35:06 PM »
Phil - I completely agree that it looks like they should widen the fairway by about 5 paces on each side.  However, in my limited experience with the course, the first cut of rough was extremely playable and not thick/inhibiting in the least.  The gunch/long grass is another story all together though...

George:

One of the reasons I like wider fairways is that they sort of lull the golfer into a false sense of security -- I'd rather see wide fairways, with minimal rough and penal native grasses, then narrower fairways with wide rough that protect against going into the gunch. And, as CD is a Mackenize, I have no doubt the good doctor designed the course in such a way that there's an ideal placement in the fairway for approach shots, and a less-than-ideal one. Wider fairways often lull the golfer into thinking he's hit a good shot if his ball lands in the short stuff, but upon closer inspection, he may very well have an awful angle into the green. That's pretty much the standard operating procedure at The Old Course, a place I believe Mackenzie knew somewhat well. ;)

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2011, 12:41:16 PM »

Mark:

I don't understand why you'd want to play the approach from #1 from further right ... you must be a fader.  The middle of the fairway gives you a better angle to play into the slope of the green.  But, you only want to be playing for the front edge at the first, anyway.


Mr. Doak,

In my mind, looking at the pictures of the approach to the 1st taken from both the left side of the 1st fairway, and the centre of the 2nd fairway, the green front is more open from the 2nd hole.  Of course, from the 2nd fairway you are playing along, rather than into, the severe right-to-left slope of the first green.

One thing that really appeals to me about playing the hole from farther right is the difficulty in getting a ball on the right portion of the green.  To get a ball on that side of the green requires nothing less than a perfectly executed, heroic golf shot that skirts the right greenside bunkers (aka X territory).  But, it seems to me that getting a ball on the front-left would be easier from the 2nd than the 1st.  I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

Also, I recognize that this is your home course and perhaps any comments you make will be guarded.  Nevertheless, I do hope you will continue to contribute to this thread as you likely know the golf course better than anyone else on this DG (perhaps with the exception of Mr. Sleeman).

Tim Bert

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2011, 01:01:55 PM »
Tom - Thanks for the response. I agree that it doesn't matter if you call it rough / fairway if there isn't much distinction between the playability of the two.  If the "rough" still allowed for roll out on tee shots and was thin enough to send balls into the fairway bunkers then that would be a great start. Sounds like I would have loved the conditioning 10 or 15 years ago, even if I am in the minority of visitors on that one.  Were the greens maintained to a bit slower speed during that period as well?

Brian_Sleeman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2011, 10:35:35 PM »
Great photos, Mark, you certainly had a great day to play.  Just a few thoughts so far...

On the issue of approaching the 1st green from closer to (or even on) the 2nd fairway, I can tell you as someone who has hit it over there unintentionally that while it appears you're facing straight up the slope of the green, any shot landing on the green from that distance is going to head left in a hurry and run off the green.  Not only does the green slope severely from back to front, but also nearly as severely from right to left.  And as you can see in the photos, a shot from that angle that ends up just a little weak and/or a little right is in disastrous trouble. 

Bombers aim their tee shot on the 1st hole down the right side of the fairway as the fairway bunker is only an issue for them if it's playing into a gale.  The light rough down there is not much of a penalty and will often provide the longer player with a more even lie than anything on the fairway.  Factor in that the rough in that area is often dryer than either the fairway or the left side, and you get a little speed boost to your tee shot - an even greater incentive to pound it down the right side.

You hit the nail on the head, Mark, when you say that the best position to end up on an approach to the first is just short and maybe a tad left.  It leaves an uphill pitch no matter where the hole is located, and a pretty good chance at saving par.

As for green speeds, the stimp reading is typically around a 10 all season long.  They can get a little leaner in the fall, and as a result you get just a little more roll, but they never get anywhere near a 12. 

But a 10 is plenty, and means that you may accidentally end up in a spot where your best putt may only get to within 10 or 15 feet.  To me, I think that's fun - clearly a shot that puts you in that position is a mistake and should be avoided.  It means you're likely to take three shots (in this case, maybe all of them putts) unless you pull off something truly brilliant.

For example, if on the 1st green the hole is cut in the front-left corner of the green (as it often is), and you find yourself on either the second or third level of the green above that hole, you've made a big mistake.  You'll do really well to two-putt and you're more than likely going to take three.  If you try to get too cute, you may even leave your first putt short, in which case you risk taking four putts. 

How is that any worse than knocking it into a bunker or other hazard that makes it unlikely to get up and down in two shots, but reasonable to do in three (and when you get too cute can sometimes take four)?

Why can't a section of a green essentially put you in the same position as if you were in a hazard?  Folks who know the hole (or are very astute at reading it the first time around) can tell that you do not want to be above the hole, or you're going to find trouble.  Do players need to have an extremely obvious warning of the sight of a bunker surrounded in tall rough in order to figure out not to hit it there?

One of the countless things I've learned in my playing time at the Downs has been the realization that you can be on the green and still essentially find yourself in a "hazardous" position.  It's one of the things that makes the golf course so unique and so astoundingly good.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2011, 11:09:05 PM »
 Nevertheless, I do hope you will continue to contribute to this thread as you likely know the golf course better than anyone else on this DG (perhaps with the exception of Mr. Sleeman).

I'll happily wager that I know the golf course as well as Brian does ... he gets out there more times per year, but I've been going there since he was a little kid.  His explanation of the approach on #1 is spot on, though.  [And you didn't say if you liked to play a fade.]

Brian_Sleeman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2011, 11:13:59 PM »
And I'll happily concede that Tom knows it and its evolution far better than I do! 

Ditto Mike DeVries.

I'm just a guy who has been fortunate to play it a fair amount over the last few years.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2011, 11:22:44 PM »

  [And you didn't say if you liked to play a fade.]


I hit it pretty straight.  If I'm playing really well, it's a little draw.  I do fade it, but it's always an accident when it happens.

JC Jones

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2011, 11:26:24 PM »
I've never had the luxury of doing so but I've always thought, given the hill on the right, that the better approach to #1 would be with a fade from the left side of the fairway.

I would love to see the course after a few years of Tom and Mike heading up the greens committee.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jud_T

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2011, 07:28:20 AM »
The amazing thing about Mark is he can do a full photo tour and the rest of the group doesn't even notice.  I guess hitting it straight and solid all day helps in this endeavor.

Brian,

Interesting comment on the green as a hazard.  Similar to the challenge at Old Mac at least in this respect.  Many feel entitled to a 2 putt after a green in regulation.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2011, 10:07:00 AM »

Why can't a section of a green essentially put you in the same position as if you were in a hazard


This is an excellent point that cannot be overstated at a course like the Downs.  Not only is it one of the longer 6500-yard courses I have ever seen, but also one of the most challenging and frightening (and fun!) from inside 65 feet.

Frank M

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted New
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2011, 01:05:43 PM »
Mark: Is there anyway we can speed up these reviews? It is agonizing waiting to see the pictures. I don't know about others, but I would prefer seeing the tours in less time.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 08:21:10 PM by Frank M »

Keith OHalloran

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2011, 01:17:10 PM »
Frank,
I assume you are not happy with the pace of Pat Mucci's Enchanted Journey!  ;D

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2011, 02:12:22 PM »
Mark: Is there anyway we can speed up these reviews? It is agonizing waiting to see the pics (i.e the Ballyneal tour is still ongoing and you first started posting on July 30th  :o)

I don't know about others, but I would prefer seeing the tours in less time.

Frank,

I'll admit the Ballyneal tour has taken longer than intended.  Still, I believe courses like Ballyneal and Crystal Downs should be done on a hole-by-hole basis to allow for discussion of each hole on its own merits. 

I will probably post the second hole today or tomorrow, but there has been continuous replies about the first and I will go on when it seems the discussion of the first hole has run its course.

Heck, Tim Bert's fantastic Kingsley Club Photo Tour took just over 6 months to post!

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2011, 04:26:14 PM »
I remember thinning my approach to the middle level with a front pin. Not a good start. The question I have is on the routing. Can I assume that the road which parallels 8, 11 and 12 was the boundary of the property and the unimproved area to the southeast was not considered. Is it as rolling as the 5-7 hole area?

Frank M

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted New
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2011, 05:35:54 PM »
I just thought I'd speed it along.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 08:20:40 PM by Frank M »

Brian_Sleeman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 1 Posted
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2011, 05:44:55 PM »
Can I assume that the road which parallels 8, 11 and 12 was the boundary of the property and the unimproved area to the southeast was not considered. Is it as rolling as the 5-7 hole area?

The club owns that property now - but they have not always.  They only recently acquired the final little section of that area.

I don't think it's quite as rolling as 5-7, but going solely by what I've seen from the road it's definitely got some undulation and interest.

Someone else can chip in as to its topography.

The routing question I had when I first visited was whether or not the areas along the bluff were considered for the golf course, but I learned that several of the homes currently occupying that property pre-date the golf course, and the rest of the bluff was sectioned off in lots for future homes.

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