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BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #225 on: July 21, 2014, 04:45:37 PM »
Despite my frequent participation, I have grown tired of this topic.  It's not worth spending the time and energy debating the merits of walking vs. riding vs. pushing/pulling.  I'm happy that my club gives me the choice, which means that I choose to walk abd carry.  Some members choose to use pushcarts.  Most choose to ride.  So be it.  It's not my place to encourage others how to play golf, just as I expect them to allow me to make my own choice.

That's the last word I have on this subject.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #226 on: July 21, 2014, 04:56:27 PM »
Despite my frequent participation, I have grown tired of this topic.  It's not worth spending the time and energy debating the merits of walking vs. riding vs. pushing/pulling.  I'm happy that my club gives me the choice, which means that I choose to walk abd carry.  Some members choose to use pushcarts.  Most choose to ride.  So be it.  It's not my place to encourage others how to play golf, just as I expect them to allow me to make my own choice.

That's the last word I have on this subject.

I'm glad you have the freedom to make the choice to stop posting.

Does your club charge to walk and carry on weekend mornings?

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #227 on: July 21, 2014, 05:05:41 PM »
Carl, the club does not charge to walk at any time.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #228 on: July 21, 2014, 06:38:10 PM »
One bucket of money... members fighting over who has to put more in the bucket... an issue that is pointless to argue.

If your cart revenue is more than your cart expenses (lease, maintenance)... even if you put in EVERYTHING (e.g cart barn depreciation)... than the riders are subsidizing the walkers.  This is the case in 99% of the clubs in America.

I have tried for years to get my Board to eliminate our cart fee and make all golf for all members free whether they walk or ride.
You take your cart revenue... divide by the number of members... raise the dues accordingly ($30 a month at my club).  No restrictions... no rules.  if your back is hurting you ride for free without financial penalty... if you play 9 holes and feel better... turn in the cart and walk the back nine.  Unleash the pros stuck behind the counter administering cart fees and free them up to work the range or interact with the members.  For those more financially oriented... lay off your assistant pro because the shop work has just been reduced to phone calls, guests and merchandise.

Only the most elite clubs can exist without golf carts.  The entire industry needs to wake up and realize they are an operating expense... not a source of revenue.  

I was under the impression that at many clubs, particularly those in the for-profit segment, cart operations are a profit center (revenues - costs including allocable overhead and depreciation = profit).  To the extent that carts are seen primarily as an operating expense and their costs allocated to all members via dues, walking will be all but eliminated.  I frequently walk courses where cart fees are included and I am the rare walker.   On more than a couple occasions, the starters couldn't remember anyone except the school kids ever hoofing it.   I am a big proponent of pay as you go- you want to ride or take a caddie, pay the real fee.

 
So which are you advocating here? Is it the "monthly price with no BS" or is it "pay for your own buggy"? That's two opposite things.

P.S. Referring to "collectivist ideology" sounds doofy even when the estimable Lou Duran does it. And you're no Lou Duran. Sounds like something you picked up from listening to Fox News.

"Doofy"?  How geeky of you.  The problem with many candy-assed Americans and Western Europeans is that they have had it so good for so long that they can't feel being gradually marinated to a boil.  ;)  Having experienced collectivism first hand, I wouldn't wish it on the reddest, most committed social justice activists.  At the inevitable level of misery that it brings, little joy is derived from being "equals" in financial and spiritual destitution (if I am not mistaken, an equal % share of a number approaching zero ain't a hell of a lot).    BTW, I do watch Fox News regularly, listen to Rush Limbaugh, and read the WSJ every day it is printed.  Oh, and though not a "member", I sympathize with much of what the dreaded Tea Party stands for.

With regard to the other fellow who notes that he disagrees with my posts, thanks for the compliment.  It reminds me of the time when a magazine editor told me that the problem with my ratings is that I like golf courses too much (meant as a dig, acknowledged and accepted as a compliment).  Who was it that said we are known by the company we keep?

 
Despite my frequent participation, I have grown tired of this topic.  It's not worth spending the time and energy debating the merits of walking vs. riding vs. pushing/pulling.  I'm happy that my club gives me the choice, which means that I choose to walk abd carry.  Some members choose to use pushcarts.  Most choose to ride.  So be it.  It's not my place to encourage others how to play golf, just as I expect them to allow me to make my own choice.

That's the last word I have on this subject.

Quite right but so terribly uncommon today.  The great philosopher Twain once spoke on the matter: “Nothing so needs reforming as other people’s habits. Fanatics will never learn that, though it be written in letters of gold across the sky.".

« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 06:40:47 PM by Lou_Duran »

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #229 on: July 21, 2014, 06:51:53 PM »
''With regard to the other fellow who notes that he disagrees with my posts, thanks for the compliment.  It reminds me of the time when a magazine editor told me that the problem with my ratings is that I like golf courses too much (meant as a dig, acknowledged and accepted as a compliment).  Who was it that said we are known by the company we keep?''

    We agree more than disagree, but I am more consistent in my viewpoints.  I have heard a lot of good things about you Lou.  We are getting way off topic of the initial post.  Walking is region/local specific ala Culture.  My friend just moved to the NE were they have walking fees after 11am.  I respect their freedom to associate however they like, just don't come crying to me about lack of members.  

''thanks for the compliment''
ouch

''Who was it that said we are known by the company we keep''
I'll notify my friends immediately''

Back to original topic
Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?

I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable.  



Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #230 on: July 21, 2014, 07:55:30 PM »
Carl, the club does not charge to walk at any time.

I recently moved to the Providence RI area and noticed that most clubs do charge a fee to carry your own bag.  "Morning" from what I've seen is before late afternoon, so if you want to walk, in the early morning, you have to take a caddy, and in shoulder morning, you have to pay a fee.  Those that don't think this is a deterrent to drawing more of this generation to the game are delusional.  If you play 25 rounds, that's close to an additional $450-500 a year plus the annoyance of being forcibly nickel and dimed.   

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #231 on: July 22, 2014, 05:15:08 AM »
Interesting and often cross purpose thread.  I have to agree with Roger.  I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.

Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh.  How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.   

BCowan - your club is very different from most because its university sponsored.  Everybody knows that the deal you get is very competitive.  I would bet my bottom dollar that if the facility had to go it alone then the membership dues would rise and there would be joining fees.  Bottom line, comparing Radrick to a truly private club (private membership, privately owned) is apples to oranges.  Just be grateful you get the deal you do  ;)

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #232 on: July 22, 2014, 07:09:36 AM »
Maybe I've missed this or it hasn't been discussed, but does anyone know what the impact of carts and the need for incremental maintenance and attention from the greens crew is? 

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #233 on: July 22, 2014, 08:01:57 AM »
Interesting and often cross purpose thread.  I have to agree with Roger.  I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.

Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh.  How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.  

BCowan - your club is very different from most because its university sponsored.  Everybody knows that the deal you get is very competitive.  I would bet my bottom dollar that if the facility had to go it alone then the membership dues would rise and there would be joining fees.  Bottom line, comparing Radrick to a truly private club (private membership, privately owned) is apples to oranges.  Just be grateful you get the deal you do  ;)The course donated $130k back to the university.  It doesn't pay $80k in property taxes.  That is still a 50k net profit.  The course is run like a UK club and has great leadership.  Dues wouldn't go up due to faculty paying less than alum memberships.  The only way it would go up is if many of the GCAers were on the board.  Yes, you can compare it.  We don't have bag attendants and it is run with much less waste due to it not trying to compete with other Private clubs.  

Ciao  
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 08:09:52 AM by BCowan »

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #234 on: July 22, 2014, 08:24:49 AM »
Interesting and often cross purpose thread.  I have to agree with Roger.  I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.

Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh.  How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.  

BCowan - your club is very different from most because its university sponsored.  Everybody knows that the deal you get is very competitive.  I would bet my bottom dollar that if the facility had to go it alone then the membership dues would rise and there would be joining fees.  Bottom line, comparing Radrick to a truly private club (private membership, privately owned) is apples to oranges.  Just be grateful you get the deal you do  ;)The course donated $130k back to the university.  It doesn't pay $80k in property taxes.  That is still a 50k net profit.  The course is run like a UK club and has great leadership.  Dues wouldn't go up due to faculty paying less than alum memberships.  The only way it would go up is if many of the GCAers were on the board.  Yes, you can compare it.  We don't have bag attendants and it is run with much less waste due to it not trying to compete with other Private clubs.  

Ciao  

Radrick also never had land/acquistion costs or course/infrastructure/construction costs.  Most courses/clubs are not so lucky. 

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #235 on: July 22, 2014, 08:46:23 AM »
Interesting and often cross purpose thread.  I have to agree with Roger.  I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.

Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh.  How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.  

BCowan - your club is very different from most because its university sponsored.  Everybody knows that the deal you get is very competitive.  I would bet my bottom dollar that if the facility had to go it alone then the membership dues would rise and there would be joining fees.  Bottom line, comparing Radrick to a truly private club (private membership, privately owned) is apples to oranges.  Just be grateful you get the deal you do  ;)The course donated $130k back to the university.  It doesn't pay $80k in property taxes.  That is still a 50k net profit.  The course is run like a UK club and has great leadership.  Dues wouldn't go up due to faculty paying less than alum memberships.  The only way it would go up is if many of the GCAers were on the board.  Yes, you can compare it.  We don't have bag attendants and it is run with much less waste due to it not trying to compete with other Private clubs.  

Ciao  

Radrick also never had land/acquistion costs or course/infrastructure/construction costs.  Most courses/clubs are not so lucky. 

Mark,

     Golden Age courses have been paid off for 50+ years.  That argument is null and void now. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #236 on: July 22, 2014, 09:15:15 AM »
Interesting and often cross purpose thread.  I have to agree with Roger.  I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.

Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh.  How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.  

BCowan - your club is very different from most because its university sponsored.  Everybody knows that the deal you get is very competitive.  I would bet my bottom dollar that if the facility had to go it alone then the membership dues would rise and there would be joining fees.  Bottom line, comparing Radrick to a truly private club (private membership, privately owned) is apples to oranges.  Just be grateful you get the deal you do  ;)The course donated $130k back to the university.  It doesn't pay $80k in property taxes.  That is still a 50k net profit.  The course is run like a UK club and has great leadership.  Dues wouldn't go up due to faculty paying less than alum memberships.  The only way it would go up is if many of the GCAers were on the board.  Yes, you can compare it.  We don't have bag attendants and it is run with much less waste due to it not trying to compete with other Private clubs.  

Ciao  

One year does not a history make.

Its not trying to compete with private clubs because Radrick isn't private.  Strip away the university affilliation, free land, free building, free course build, a dictated membership and its easy to see why Radrick isn't competing, period.  A club like Radrick has the luxury of running much leaner than true privates because it doesn't compete and it has the richest public university in the country backing it. I am not knocking the situation, just saying why its VERY different from other modern clubs.  Radrick is basically a benefit for employees.  In fact, just to show the difference, at Radrick you buy a season pass, you are not a member. And, one can only book a week in advance - if I remember correctly.  No question Radrick is a great deal, but it operates on a different basis than true private clubs.

Ciao 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #237 on: July 22, 2014, 09:30:14 AM »
Interesting and often cross purpose thread.  I have to agree with Roger.  I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.

Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh.  How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.  

BCowan - your club is very different from most because its university sponsored.  Everybody knows that the deal you get is very competitive.  I would bet my bottom dollar that if the facility had to go it alone then the membership dues would rise and there would be joining fees.  Bottom line, comparing Radrick to a truly private club (private membership, privately owned) is apples to oranges.  Just be grateful you get the deal you do  ;)The course donated $130k back to the university.  It doesn't pay $80k in property taxes.  That is still a 50k net profit.  The course is run like a UK club and has great leadership.  Dues wouldn't go up due to faculty paying less than alum memberships.  The only way it would go up is if many of the GCAers were on the board.  Yes, you can compare it.  We don't have bag attendants and it is run with much less waste due to it not trying to compete with other Private clubs.  

Ciao  

One year does not a history make.

Its not trying to compete with private clubs because Radrick isn't private.  Strip away the university affilliation, free land, free building, free course build, a dictated membership and its easy to see why Radrick isn't competing, period.  A club like Radrick has the luxury of running much leaner than true privates because it doesn't compete and it has the richest public university in the country backing it. I am not knocking the situation, just saying why its VERY different from other modern clubs.  Radrick is basically a benefit for employees.  In fact, just to show the difference, at Radrick you buy a season pass, you are not a member. And, one can only book a week in advance - if I remember correctly.  No question Radrick is a great deal, but it operates on a different basis than true private clubs.

Ciao  

Ciao

    Oh really than explain why the UofM courses loses tons of money, it has a rich university backing it up?  Yes it is, it is a season pass renewable each year.  You pay all of it in Feb!  Most private clubs only take tee times a week in advance.  Season pass holders do have some say.  You have to donate $500 to have access, hence it is quasi private.  The alum and faculty make up 90+% of the membership and don't need matthaii members.  They just added the donation for access in the last decade or so.  When you have just faculty and alum you have a limited market membership.  The course is run like a club corp course, with the intent not to waste money.  member owned clubs follow other member owned courses without a mind of their own into debt!  If radrick was a member owned it could operate just the way it is, if the right people were in leadership.  Dues wouldn't go up, faculty pay $500 less than alum.  Low key private is under served in the market place period  Operating differently than true member owned clubs is a great thing and should be emulated.  Part of Radrick's success is true individual membership model (larger pool).  Having voting rights to justify $500+ a month dues, i'll pass even if I was a millionaire.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 09:44:12 AM by BCowan »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #238 on: July 22, 2014, 09:35:34 AM »
This has all the look and feel of a great day.

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #239 on: July 22, 2014, 09:37:38 AM »
This has all the look and feel of a great day.

This could be the best post ever.

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #240 on: July 22, 2014, 09:37:46 AM »
This has all the look and feel of a great day.
+1  :D  Open tee times on my space

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #241 on: July 22, 2014, 09:51:47 AM »
Any private club worth joining doesn't have tee times.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #242 on: July 22, 2014, 09:55:07 AM »
Interesting and often cross purpose thread.  I have to agree with Roger.  I can't see how at a private club carts are seen as a revenue source.

Someone said it, and it is so perverse that I had to laugh.  How in the hell anybody can construe that cart ballers subsidize walkers is an argument so messed up that I have to wonder if someone was kicked in the head by a mule.   

Perverse or not, in a club whose bylaws require a balanced end-of-year budget, cart usage absolutely subsidizes the costs for walkers. Carts usage generates a net profit for the club, plain and simple. Unless a club charges additional fees to carry or pockets a portion of a caddie fee, walking does not generate the same profit. When the end-of-year financial information comes out, that $150,000 or so in profit that the cartballers at my club generate is much appreciated when we balance the expenses with revenue and determine that no dues increase, implementation of a walking fee, or assessment is needed.

Clubs are full of old, retired guys. At my club, we several foursomes of them that play six days a week in carts. Spread over nine months of the year, that’s around $50,000-$75,000 in revenue just from their group of 10-16 that shows up every day. Every time I show up on a Wednesday evening and walk 14 holes before dark while paying $0, I’m thankful that they’re around to help keep the membership affordable through their higher dues, their unpaid service on club committees, their daily patronage of the grill room, and yes, their cart usage. I’m getting a good deal thanks in no small part to the multitude of ways that they’re willing to spend money at the club. Replace those guys with a bunch of walking GCAers (me included), and the result will be far less revenue, greens that always look like they just came off a waffle iron thanks to all the True Linkswear footprints, unraked bunkers that play like CBM would have wanted, and a major push to undertake a costly restoration project so we can have wall-to-wall fairway with one row of sprinklers across the middle of the property. The club would be bankrupt in two years.

Outside of the quote above, though, I'm +1 on all of Sean's comments on this page of this thread that just keeps on giving.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #243 on: July 22, 2014, 09:55:39 AM »
Any private club worth joining doesn't have tee times.

I'm +1 on this too.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #244 on: July 22, 2014, 10:00:19 AM »
How did clubs survive prior to carts???  :D

I'm sure anyone with half a brain could eliminate $150k a year in waste.  Just imagine if those cartballer seniors didn't have to pay $25 a pop, maybe you would have more of them as members.   

When those non tee time clubs have a waiting list, get back to me

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #245 on: July 22, 2014, 10:09:48 AM »
How did clubs survive prior to carts???  :D

I'm sure anyone with half a brain could eliminate $150k a year in waste.  Just imagine if those cartballer seniors didn't have to pay $25 a pop, maybe you would have more of them as members.  

When those non tee time clubs have a waiting list, get back to me

Radrick having a wait list is very similar to only being able to buy Egg McMuffins prior to 10:30 in the morning.  

Mike Sweeney

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #246 on: July 22, 2014, 10:10:35 AM »
Any private club worth joining doesn't have tee times.

Ok let's start with the Royal & Ancient Golf Club. No tee times because they don't have a golf course.....

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #247 on: July 22, 2014, 10:11:17 AM »
How did clubs survive prior to carts???  :D

I'm sure anyone with half a brain could eliminate $150k a year in waste.  Just imagine if those cartballer seniors didn't have to pay $25 a pop, maybe you would have more of them as members.   

When those non tee time clubs have a waiting list, get back to me

Radrick having a wait list is very similar to only being able to by Egg McMuffins prior to 10:30 in the morning. 

Wouldn't you like to own a McDonalds. 

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #248 on: July 22, 2014, 10:12:12 AM »
How did clubs survive prior to carts???  :D

Humans survived prior to grocery stores and organized government. Still, I wouldn't bet on your survival if those things disappeared today.

Maybe if we eliminated cart fees we could have a few more senior members, but the inevitable old man smell would permeate the clubhouse and probably drive the value down and the young guys can only listen to so many stories about the war before we would all leave to go find a different club ourselves. Plus, we'd have to buy a lot more rocking chairs. It's a delicate balance, and my club tries to find the right number of each kind of member.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #249 on: July 22, 2014, 10:17:32 AM »
How did clubs survive prior to carts???  :D

Humans survived prior to grocery stores and organized government. Still, I wouldn't bet on your survival if those things disappeared today.

Maybe if we eliminated cart fees we could have a few more senior members, but the inevitable old man smell would permeate the clubhouse and probably drive the value down and the young guys can only listen to so many stories about the war before we would all leave to go find a different club ourselves. Plus, we'd have to buy a lot more rocking chairs. It's a delicate balance, and my club tries to find the right number of each kind of member.

kinda like your course not going bankrupt when it had single line irrigation  :)

Picking and choosing what type of members interesting.  Who said eliminate cart fees?  Surely a club doesn't have to gouge it's own senior members with $25-30 bucks a pop for a cart.  The same members that supported the club when there was single line irrigation  :D

''Humans survived prior to grocery stores and organized government. Still, I wouldn't bet on your survival if those things disappeared today.''  Really?  you must not like to make money.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 10:21:41 AM by BCowan »

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