[BCowan]

Hoover,

   It is a wonder how private clubs survived prior to the golf cart  .  The progies tried to institute a ''Trail Fee'' one year at my parents club, they axed that very quick as in it never got off the ground..

[Bill Gayne]

You said you were against being charged for a cart that you do not use. If everyone pays the same you would be paying for the carts you do not use.  My point is that we all pay for parts of the club we never see. My utopia is a club of like minded individuals who all pay the same and play however the choose. All members are equals economically and socially. Nobody gets a deal just cause they don't like this or that.

True, people don't realize they're really paying in the monthly base the option to take the cart. I appreciate having the option always available despite that i'm a walker. Options don't come for free.

[BCowan]

You said you were against being charged for a cart that you do not use. If everyone pays the same you would be paying for the carts you do not use.  My point is that we all pay for parts of the club we never see. My utopia is a club of like minded individuals who all pay the same and play however the choose. All members are equals economically and socially. Nobody gets a deal just cause they don't like this or that.

   Carts require a mechanic which repairs and maintains the carts.  The cart costs money initially, hence people are charged when they take them.  Now charging $25 a cart maybe your clubs problem, not the walker who pays monthly dues in which to enjoy his club the proper way.  Your arguments of subsidizing are ludicrous.  Using carts as a means of revenue and balancing the books is sad too.  

[BHoover]

I would resign my membership if my club adopted a policy requiring a cart or charging for a cart when I walk. I feel strongly against mandatory carts, caddies or even walking. Let me choose how to play.

So if your club adopted a policy where all golfers could either walk or ride for no additional costs you would resign?

I don't want to get sucked into your vortex (I get enough of that in my career dealing with the government).

If my club allowed the choice of walking for free or riding at no charge, then I would be fine with it. I am also fine with choosing between walking for free or paying to ride or use a caddie. It's the lack of choice that bothers me.

[John Kavanaugh]

I guess you guys want women and children charged for using the pool. This is where the muni feeling originated, enjoy the club and quit pinching pennies.

[BHoover]

I guess you guys want women and children charged for using the pool. This is where the muni feeling originated, enjoy the club and quit pinching pennies.

And I'm now sucked into the JakaB vortex...Presumably the monthly dues cover the costs of the pool, does it not? I bet you're a joy to be around at your club. Remind me not to become a member where you are.

[BCowan]

I guess you guys want women and children charged for using the pool. This is where the muni feeling originated, enjoy the club and quit pinching pennies.

    Social memberships should cover the cost for most of the pool.  muni's are courses run by a local gov't.  We do enjoy our clubs and I don't pinch pennies, just have a different set of principles then yourself.  I have always advocated for golf clubs and individual memberships.  No need for pools at golf clubs. 

''Remind me not to become a member where you are''
+1

[John Kavanaugh]

Every club where I am a member allows you to play however you choose. Only one has a pool and I've never been in it.

Victoria National recently decided to allow push carts. It was presented as a better option for play during cart path only times. It was never seen as a way to allow walkers to play cheaper than riders. I pay $1,200 a year and can take a cart or trolley an unlimited times per year. My choice when or why. I don't feel ripped off when I choose to walk.

[BHoover]

Every club where I am a member allows you to play however you choose. Only one has a pool and I've never been in it.

Victoria National recently decided to allow push carts. It was presented as a better option for play during cart path only times. It was never seen as a way to allow walkers to play cheaper than riders. I pay $1,200 a year and can take a cart or trolley an unlimited times per year. My choice when or why. I don't feel ripped off when I choose to walk.

So then where the hell do we disagree? Oh wait, you're just trying to stir up an argument. Vortex...

If my dues cover the choice, then so be it.

[BCowan]

Every club where I am a member allows you to play however you choose. Only one has a pool and I've never been in it.

Victoria National recently decided to allow push carts. It was presented as a better option for play during cart path only times. It was never seen as a way to allow walkers to play cheaper than riders. I pay $1,200 a year and can take a cart or trolley an unlimited times per year. My choice when or why. I don't feel ripped off when I choose to walk.

   What is the point of having monthly dues?  Why should someone be charged $1200 a year when they walk?  They have their own trolley and or carry.  They aren't requiring the club to purchase carts.  If you use a cart, simply pay for it.  Club overcharging for carts and then blaming walkers is what you are advocating.  U defiantly are stuck in Utopia.  Of course the few golf clubs that I know of are doing very well and would be doing horrible if they initiated a $1200 a year Trail/Cart fee.     

[John Kavanaugh]

We disagree in that you refuse to subsidize my cart riding by paying the same as it costs me to ride. You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club. It smells of iron clicking elitism.

[BCowan]

We disagree in that you refuse to subsidize my cart riding by paying the same as it costs me to ride. You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club. It smells of iron clicking elitism.

''You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club.''

Such as?  As I said the social membership is very strong at the club I grew up at and they are paying for the pool expenses.  When you make any sense, get back to me. 

[Carl Johnson]

I guess you guys want women and children charged for using the pool. This is where the muni feeling originated, enjoy the club and quit pinching pennies.

Interesting you should bring this up.  My "golf" club does have a pool - the only extra.  No extra charge.  But, I'll guarantee you this.  If we did not have the pool (we're in North Carolina, remember) as part of the basic membership, we would not have a golf club.  So, no problem.  It's part of the deal.  I knew that when I joined.  I knew the business model it would take for the club to thrive, or thought I did.  So far, so good.  Oh, and we also have a grill menu - no formal dining.  You could say that's subsidized too.  But golf is the biggest subsidized program of all.

[Carl Johnson]

We disagree in that you refuse to subsidize my cart riding by paying the same as it costs me to ride. You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club. It smells of iron clicking elitism.

I disagree with you here, too.  But it's not a question of right or wrong.  It's a question of options and choice.  It's not elitism.  I doubt my club would ever adopt a one-price policy, including carts, but if they did, I'd have to take that into account.  (And, I should add, it's not so much the cost consideration, but rather the club culture reflected by such a policy that would bother me.)  So, you have clubs with different models.  Some will flourish, some won't, for whatever reason.  The market can work this out. 

[BHoover]

We disagree in that you refuse to subsidize my cart riding by paying the same as it costs me to ride. You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club. It smells of iron clicking elitism.

I disagree with you here, too.  But it's not a question of right or wrong.  It's a question of options and choice.  It's not elitism.  I doubt my club would ever adopt a one-price policy, including carts, but if they did, I'd have to take that into account.  So, you have clubs with different models.  Some will flourish, some won't, for whatever reason.  The market can work this out.

Exactly. Let the market dictate what works and what does not.

[Bill Gayne]

You said you were against being charged for a cart that you do not use. If everyone pays the same you would be paying for the carts you do not use.  My point is that we all pay for parts of the club we never see. My utopia is a club of like minded individuals who all pay the same and play however the choose. All members are equals economically and socially. Nobody gets a deal just cause they don't like this or that.

   Carts require a mechanic which repairs and maintains the carts.  The cart costs money initially, hence people are charged when they take them.  Now charging $25 a cart maybe your clubs problem, not the walker who pays monthly dues in which to enjoy his club the proper way.  Your arguments of subsidizing are ludicrous.  Using carts as a means of revenue and balancing the books is sad too.  

The costs you're describing is variable cost which the cart fees go to cover. Everyone pays the infrastructure costs which is the building to charge and store the carts and costs of building and maintaining cart paths. 

[John Kavanaugh]

We disagree in that you refuse to subsidize my cart riding by paying the same as it costs me to ride. You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club. It smells of iron clicking elitism.

I disagree with you here, too.  But it's not a question of right or wrong.  It's a question of options and choice.  It's not elitism.  I doubt my club would ever adopt a one-price policy, including carts, but if they did, I'd have to take that into account.  So, you have clubs with different models.  Some will flourish, some won't, for whatever reason.  The market can work this out.

Exactly. Let the market dictate what works and what does not.

The market has dictated that walking only courses are both rare and uber-expensive.

My point of posting on this thread, because I am a huge fan of trolleys, is to point out that to win this war you must take saving money out of your argument.  It was accomplished at Victoria by showing that trolleys are an enhancement to a members experience not to his pocketbook.  Not a single member takes a trolley at Victoria to save money.  If you can get ownership to believe that you have a winning proposition.

My personal issue is that if walking is so fantastic then people should be willing to pay more for the privilege.  This of course explains why people join walking only clubs at greater expense than clubs that allow carts.

I can not think of another leisure activity where you can have an enhanced experience for less money like walking and carrying provides the country club golfer.

[David_Tepper]

"My personal issue is that if walking is so fantastic then people should be willing to pay more for the privilege."

John Kavanaugh -

You are beautiful. Even by your standards of nonsense, that one takes the cake. No one makes a phoney argument better than you do.

DT

[Carl Nichols]

We disagree in that you refuse to subsidize my cart riding by paying the same as it costs me to ride. You are however willing to subsidize many other activities at your club. It smells of iron clicking elitism.

I disagree with you here, too.  But it's not a question of right or wrong.  It's a question of options and choice.  It's not elitism.  I doubt my club would ever adopt a one-price policy, including carts, but if they did, I'd have to take that into account.  So, you have clubs with different models.  Some will flourish, some won't, for whatever reason.  The market can work this out.

Exactly. Let the market dictate what works and what does not.

 

My point of posting on this thread, because I am a huge fan of trolleys, is to point out that to win this war you must take saving money out of your argument. It was accomplished at Victoria by showing that trolleys are an enhancement to a members experience not to his pocketbook.  Not a single member takes a trolley at Victoria to save money.  If you can get ownership to believe that you have a winning proposition.

John:

I agree, and that's why my arguments against our no-trolleys rule haven't turned on saving money at all.

As for the money question and carts, I get that there are all sorts of subsidies going on at clubs.  (For example, my family plays very little tennis, so I'm subsidizing the tennis facility.)  The reason I don't like the walking fee, and the reason I wouldn't want us to adopt higher dues that include carts, is because both increase the use of carts--and I'd rather be a member at a place where there's less cart use.  The same isn't true of tennis.  I get that's a personal view, and that's probably not the majority view at my club.  

[Jud_T]

My point of posting on this thread, because I am a huge fan of trolleys, is to point out that to win this war you must take saving money out of your argument.  It was accomplished at Victoria by showing that trolleys are an enhancement to a members experience not to his pocketbook.  Not a single member takes a trolley at Victoria to save money.  If you can get ownership to believe that you have a winning proposition.

This is actually a very good point.  At a private club, presenting it as a positive addition to the member experience rather than a hit to the club's bottom line is a much more intelligent tack.  Most people don't join a private club to save money in the states, they join one to have a better golfing experience.  If it can be shown that providing a better golfing experience includes push-carts, then you are on to something.

Seems to me that one of those electric push-carts might be the perfect middle ground for an aging, out-of-shape golfing population, yours truly included.

[Carl Nichols]

My point of posting on this thread, because I am a huge fan of trolleys, is to point out that to win this war you must take saving money out of your argument.  It was accomplished at Victoria by showing that trolleys are an enhancement to a members experience not to his pocketbook.  Not a single member takes a trolley at Victoria to save money.  If you can get ownership to believe that you have a winning proposition.

This is actually a very good point.  At a private club, presenting it as a positive addition to the member experience rather than a hit to the club's bottom line is a much more intelligent tack.  Most people don't join a private club to save money in the states, they join one to have a better golfing experience.  If it can be shown that providing a better golfing experience includes push-carts, then you are on to something.

Seems to me that one of those electric push-carts might be the perfect middle ground for an aging, out-of-shape golfing population, yours truly included.

I'm thankfully not there yet, but I agree.  On hilly courses with lots of trees and decent rough [like my club], push carts aren't that much easier on the body than carrying.   

[Brent Hutto]

I mostly use a push cart so I can carry a six to eight pound bottle of sand/seed mix for fixing divots on our Bermuda fairways. If it's just a lightweight stand bag and a set of clubs I agree that almost any hills (or soft spots) will make the push cart just about as much work as toting on my shoulder.

P.S. Another advantage to push carts is I can put up an umbrella for shade when playing mid-day in June and July.

[Jud_T]

Carl,

Alternatively, we just need to join flatter courses in our dotage...

[BCowan]

 ''At a private club, presenting it as a positive addition to the member experience rather than a hit to the club's bottom line is a much more intelligent tack.  Most people don't join a private club to save money in the states, they join one to have a better golfing experience.  If it can be shown that providing a better golfing experience includes push-carts, then you are on to something.''

   That is the reason why private memberships are down, but keep attacking Pennie pinchers.  People join a private club for many reasons and not all clubs are Country Clubs.  The market is speaking, ''there are too many country clubs'', old guard is asleep.   Business as usual.   All the wasteful high salary positions could be the issue, but of course that involves economics.  Gotta love the intelligentsia that lack common sense. 

[Brent Hutto]

Gotta love the intelligentsia that lack common sense. 

I don't think anyone would confuse either golfers in general or country-club members specifically with the "intelligentsia", B.

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