[Simon Holt]

Anthony,

Thanks for that information.  For my part, I hope I didn't cast too much of a black cloud over the project as I did mention quite a few times how much I enjoyed it the second time round.  Off the GC the lodges were nice, the food was good and the staff super friendly.

My report of the course will not change though.  That's what I saw and no amount of Marketing will change that.  If the course is much easier now it must have been pretty full on before any changes.

Its great to hear they will be allowed to do some further improvements.  Again, the greens that weren't badly damaged were great fun and in good condition.  The turf was good to hit off bit the fairways were very 'raw' in appearance which I suppose adds to the feel of the place.

In terms of rumours etc.  Not trying to spread any!  I was just recounting what I heard from staff on the day.  Again, as stated previously, I wish it all the luck in the world.  Its a cool place.

Niall,

I would not compare RC with any of these courses. I agree with you about the US golfers not being the primary clientèle at these courses. "More to the point I see VERY FEW US golfers without a caddy or at the more remote courses." not my best English but what I meant was the majority of US golfers don't even visit the more remote courses.

S

[Mark Pearce]

Simon,

I recall that you're a very tidy golfer.  The only guy I know who has played MD before you is the brother of one of my partners and a +1 golfer who plays most of his golf on links courses.  For Kris' info, he is also a "local".  He played it just after it opened and didn't break 85.  He described it as virtually impossible and suggested that a mid-teens golfer would struggle to get round.  He did say that some of the holes were great fun, though.  Perhaps the course is now easier!

Mark

[Adam Lawrence]

Mark, that view doesn't square with my recollection. I was there during the official opening; the fairways were extremely wide, but if you missed them, you were likely to lose your ball, as they weren't allowed to mow the rough (hence the sheep, which hopefully have fixed that problem). There's a lot of blindness, but I don't remember too many big forced carries, unless you were daft enough to go back to the 7,300 yard tees.

I suspect the length of the walk - and it is a long way - relates to areas that were deemed off limits for environmental reasons.

[James Boon]

Simon,

How much of the rough nature of the course is concept, and how much is necessity? I always thought that it was a case of finding a great set of dunes but that wildlife preservation measures stopped pretty much anything more than mowing a few greens and fairways, which pretty much led to the rough nature of the course?

Cheers,

James

Boony,

That was my question really but I have done some digging and they truly did go out to achieve that look.  Fair play to them- like I said, I really enjoyed my second round.  The greens are fun and the setting is really cool.

Simon

Simon,

Interesting to hear they were actually keen on that look. I'm guessing its similar to Askernish and I remember missing a few fairways there and not finding my ball due to the rough, but I enjoyed it as it was around £20 I paid. Pitching that sort of ethos, challenge and aesthetic for closer to £80 is going to be a hard sell I imagine, but having said that I'm certainly keen to give it a go at least once!

Cheers,

James

[Chris DeNigris]

I just don't get the "too difficult" criticisms. As a resort type course MD is going to be played mostly by tourists. I played it 3 months after it opened and while I hit it a bit crooked at times and lost a few balls that didn't diminish the overall experience one bit.  I've played far more penal courses in Florida. Castle Stuart, which I played on the same trip, was far easier in terms of scoreability but for everyone in my group they preferred the wild and rugged thrill of MD.  The greens are easily more interesting. 

It's a unique and spectacular course on an amazing site. And from all indications it seems that it will be improving with age. I wish there was a comprehensive photo spread available so the actual design elements could be seen and discussed. I think that would bode well for the golf course.

And while somewhat "rough" due to the environmental restrictions I don't think there's a lot of similarity to Askernish.

[Niall C]

Niall,

I can understand your frustraton. Welcome to the club! Read that glittering take posted by Mr. Pioppi, offered by Southworth's Director of Marketing. Balance that against an IMPARTIAL appraisal by Mr. Holt, who was JUST there and played the course!

In your latest response to me you state," ...which is why I said that any group who couldn't get round in reasonable fashion because they need a caddy to keep them hitting balls into the bundi, then that was a flawed design for the target audience....ounce of intelligence." Simon and his group are Scottish and English golfers who, except for Simon, don't take caddies! They had a nightmare time of it as Simon recounted. What's next....they're not representative of "real" native golfers.

Interesting that noted golf writer Jim Finegan, who has traveled and written for decades on golf in Scotland and Ireland, is quoted as saying,"NO one--I repeat no one--needs finer golf than is presented by Machrihanish Dunes. It is arguably among the Top 50 in the world." Quite a statement for a "flawed' design...which is it?

Kris

Against my better judgement I came back to your thread and have just read your post above. Let me take you through this one step at a time;

1 - the vast majority of UK golfers (lets say 99.9999%) don't use caddies even when visiting new courses.

2 - in my estimation Mach Dunes should be targeting largely home players, and that seems to be what they are doing given there local advertising.

3 - Simon and his group are home players ie. target market

4 - Without caddies to steer them away from trouble, they are constantly searching for balls such that rounds take over 5 hours.

5 - Assuming that 5 hour rounds where players constantly looking for balls wasn't what was intended, the design would appear to me to be flawed.

Some might not agree, but at least they can follow the logic of the argument and respond accordingly. You instead choose to question whether I can read and punctuate your statements with "Nuff said" as though to cut off any further discussion. That frankly is bad mannered. This website can do better. As for Mr Finegan, a nice writer but he does write a lot of puff pieces IMO ?

Niall

[Kai Hulkkonen]

I have just returned from a 10-day golf tour of western Scotland (my third trip to Scotland), and felt the need to comment on this thread.

After spending 2 and half (wet and very windy) days in Machrihanish, I think the "resort" (already as it is) is just behind St.Andrews on the list of best golf destinations in Europe. As for me, Machrihanish beats Turnberry (where I stayed for 4 nights) for overall quality of golf, while doing a very good job with the "extras". We stayed in the Ugadale Cottages which are really nice and great value for money. Food at the Old Clubhouse Pub was excellent and the service top notch.

We played 45 holes on Machrihanish Dunes and 18 on the old Machrihanish. While I liked the original course better, I also think that DMK (and his on-site guys) have done a fantastic job with the Dunes course. I'm a 12-handicapper, played without caddie, but didn't find the course as difficult as some here are saying. I'm not a particularly long hitter so I was hitting driver off the tee on all holes except for the three par 3's and with the exception of the #2 had no trouble keeping the ball in play. They have cut the rough back significantly from what it had been until recently (we had a chance to talk with the greens staff on a couple of occasions) and I'm sure that has made a huge difference. Also, we didn't find the course to be that hard a walk (one of us had a trolley, 2 carried). I guess 2 to 3 and 7 to 8 were the longest and rest of it was just fine. 3 of us needed about 3 hours and 45 mins per 18.

We were also told about the future changes to the course, and some of it seems to make sense (although I don't really see the need to alter the 17th green, as I thought it was fun). They also confirmed that they are swapping the nines, and I think it is for better.

I loved the whole original back nine except for the 12th which was a looong into the wind, but it's easy enough to see why it was decided to just use one long hole to get across that area as the land there doesn't really offer much in terms of natural features (I guess it'd been flattened by the military decades ago??).

On the front I thought 2 & 3 weren't that great (especially #2 which almost made me cry, it was that hard with the wind up). I also am not a big fan of the 9th which plays less "links" than the rest of the course.

As for course conditioning, I thought it was good enough considering the time of the year. Old Machrihanish and Turnberry had greens in much better shape than MD but I thought they were essentially very similar to, say, Western Gailes or Dundonald.

A great experience overall and we will definitely go back.

BTW, met two very friendly Americans while there, they'd just played The Machrie the day before and were loving MD as it was.

Kai

[Kris Shreiner]

Kai,

Thank you for that report on your trip! The team at MD are making adjustments to what was originally mandated as a very rugged presentation, due to environmental sensitivity and constraints during construction. Any course, no matter how well-presented when it newly opens, will have tweaks as part of the course's evolution. With a track that had the wildness of MD, those changes are generally more pronounced, as the playing characteristics reveal themselves... adjustments are made.That region can often also have some harsh weather conditions, which hampers turf growth and timely completion on some projects.

As they soften the edges of the presentation and take some of the penal nature away from the test, the lost-balls scenario should diminish. While you didn't take a caddie, which is fine, I will ask...was a proper caddie even offered or available?

Where did you vist from? Are you from the U.K.? The reason I ask is that I'm curious as to what stimulated your decision to visit Machrihanish?

Some of the posters on here contend that the course was/is being marketed primarily for local and in-country play. I know for a fact the original model was NOT that approach. I also believe that without SIGNIFICANT overseas play, ANY modern, destination links golf project in the U.K. has ZERO chance of making a profit on that investment longterm. Where has one of any quality been built in the last 20 years that succeeded in the U.K. without strong visitor play? Kingsbarns is the only one that's done anything and that is DOMINATED by paying golfers visitoring from overseas.

Cheers,
Kris

[Brad Wilbur]

Could one make an analogy of Machrihanish and MD to Sand Hills and Dismal River?  First course more highly rated, with the second course more severe and subject to softening.  I didn't see any references to Dismal on the first page and thought this might soften withdrawal symptoms for members.

[Kai Hulkkonen]

Kris,

I very much agree with you on that MD is a course that will keep evolving for the next decade or two. Not that I'd change much, but they obviously are having to change a few things to ease the maintenance and will also address some playability issues.

I don't know if caddies would've been available. I wasn't offered one upon arrival and I wasn't the one who made the booking, so I don't know.

As for the reason we visited Machrihanish... I really really like links golf. And the quirkier the better. I have a couple of friends who are the same, and we tend to travel to areas where some of this is on offer (this year southern Wales, Kent and now Ayrshire and Kintyre). Consequently, Machrihanish, together with Turnberry, was the reason we were in the area. I flew in from Lisbon via London, so the 4-hour drive from Turnberry didn't feel like much. And it's a very pretty road, too.

Kai

[Niall C]

Kai

Which part of the US are you from ? 

I'm guessing from your surname that while you flew in from Portugal that perhaps you might be Finnish rather than Portugese ? How did you find out about the course, what specifically made you want to play it ahead of others and was it advertised where you come from ? Interested to hear.

Also interested whether you found the blindness a problem, or were the landing areas generous enough for that nmot to be a problem ?

Niall

[Kai Hulkkonen]

Niall,

Yeah, I'm Finnish. I tend to keep track of whatever of interest is going on in the business of golf course architecture, so I've known of the project for some time now. Can't remember how I first came across it. A GCA.com thread would be a good guess... And I'm pretty sure I have never seen any of their advertising. Primary reasons to pick Machrihanish would be just the (obviously) rugged nature of the MD as well as some of the great reviews the old Machrihanish gets. We had also planned to play Dunaverty but opted to get to know MD better.

I didn't find the blindness to be much of a problem. I did lose a ball to the left of the first green when I thought I wasn't that far left of the marker post. That was on the first round through there, and obviously had no issues with that on the following rounds. There were couple of other places where the marker kind of led you to trouble, like the fantastic 13th, as I couldn't reach the green with the wind from the sea. Second time around I played slightly left of the post and had a good look at the green. Generally speaking, I thought the landing areas were more than generous.

Kai

[Niall C]

Thanks Kai, as I think you pointed out in an earlier post, these courses tend to evolve rather than just be developed and I expect over time experience will tell them where to widen landing areas on blind shots.

BTW which did you prefer, Mach Old or Mach New ?

Niall

[Kai Hulkkonen]

I certainly prefer the old Mach over the Dunes but I also prefer it to nearly everything I've seen. For me they both far surpass the likes of Carnoustie, Kinsbarns and the Castle course. They are both just so much fun. Despite the rather disappointing finish, I'd probably take the old Mach over Ailsa, too.

[Brian Walshe]

I played MD twice when I visited in September 2009.  It was very raw and first of the sheep arrived the second day we played and made themselves at home eating the plants around the clubhouse.  At that stage MD was close to impossible in a decent wind, you had a lot of blind shots and you just had no idea where the ball had ended up in the knee high rough.  Fairways were a little patchy and there were places where 6ft from the green you lost the ball.  Even with all that there were holes that made you smile and at the end of 2 days, for all its failings, I'd gladly tee up there again.  Perhaps it's biggest problem is it has one of the most memorable and fun courses on the planet just down the road.

[Simon Holt]

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Big-course-changes-at-Mach-Dunes/2268/Default.aspx

Interesting stuff Adam.  Where will the greensite be moved to on the par 4 8th (that will be the 17th I presume) ?  Lower down the hill nearer to the wet area?  Tough hole but I actually liked the heroic nature of the second shot even though it was a good carry to a relatively small green.

Great to hear a new course is being so progressive in addressing the feedback of their customers.  I hope (and I am sure) that they wont move too far too away from their initial ethos and goals.  I certainly feel that losing some of the blindness without taking it all out will be of massive benefit to the perception of the course in some quarters.

S

[Ally Mcintosh]

Can someone tell me... If I take a group of 16 to Machrihanish, am I better staying in the Ugadale Cottages or in nearby Campbeltown...

We like comfort but have no real interest in pampered over-the-top service... Location next to golf is not the be all and end all... More important is a genuine local and warm atmosphere to the evening's drink and food...

Thank you...

[Adam Lawrence]

I'd stay in the cottages. The Old Clubhouse pub is excellent, you're next to the golf, and Campbeltown is a hole. Plus the deals on offer are hard to resist.

When the Ugadale Hotel opens early next year there'll be another restaurant option on hand too.

[Kris Shreiner]

Well it seems as if the rugged nature of MD is being declawed. While the purported blindness on too many holes being addressed certainly makes sense, the other changes seem somewhat excessive. That 8th hole is/was SUPERB! Heroic, difficult...sure, isn't that what great golf is supposed to have some of?

Don't know that Campbeltown is a hole. That is a bit harsh of an assessment. The town has a gritty edge. It's had a long period of decline as fishing slowed after the other industry and single malt production ebbed over the years. I found a vibrant pub scene, with solid fare, and the locals are trying to turn things around. It takes serious cash to return a place to it's former, tidy state. As this area is remote and low in population, it got overlooked historically when funding schemes were available. That's changed in the last ten years, though the lastest downturn, beginning in 2008, really hurt what had been some notable efforts to re-energize the area.

The efforts by Southworth and the rest of the investment team should aid in the region's emergence as a wonderful, Scottish destination that has a slightly slower pace than the more populated parts of the country. For convenience and nice accomodations, the on-site cottages are a good call when golfing MD, but do venture into the town at least once to get some of the local flavor.

Cheers,
Kris

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks Adam, Kris...

It's local flavour we prefer... You can get far, far too much of high-end golf / resort accommodation with over the top service... We might B&B in Campeltown I think...

It can't be that bad?..... Can it?

[Adam Lawrence]

The thing that distresses me about Kintyre is all that fabulous seafood swimming around you, and finding it almost impossible to get it in the pubs/restaurants. The local scallops are good, mind.

That used to be true in much of Scotland, but it's perking up elsewhere.

[Scott Macpherson]

I wish DMK was on this site. I haven't seen the course, but I wonder what his reflections are on the changes to the course? Was he involved in them? Or has the client done them independently?

Adam,  just reading your post, what does "E mau tonu nei kia mau tonu ra" mean? It almost sounds Maori? Is it?

regards,

Scott

[Adam Lawrence]

Scott - yeah, it's Maori, the Maori chant from the end of 'Together Alone' by Crowded House, perhaps my favourite song by perhaps my favourite band. It means 'the love we have for one another is everlasting'; I put it as my sig last year when my mum died.

David has a piece of the ownership of Mach Dunes, and I understand that his dad has been involved with these changes.

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Adam,

Yeah I love that album and band too. No shame in that. In fact I went to see them early this year when they were doing a 'winery tour' in NZ. What could be more perfect... Crowded House, a summers night, and a nice bottle of Vino!

Kia Kaha (Be strong)

scott

[Kris Shreiner]

Ally,

I don't thnk you'd fnd the cottage environment on-site at MD "over-the-top." Tasteful, trending toward the higher-end, but restrained in the main, would be my description of the overall presentation thus far. The newer, restoration projects described will be a bit more rarified from what I can gather. IM me and I can put you on some possible B&B's in town. We went to a crack'n pub in town that had great live music and a memorable vibe to the place. The name escapes me at the moment, but I'll come up with it shortly.

It's not a bad taxi ride to town from MD, though if you want to really immerse yourself in the local scene, staying in-town makes sense. I will say that the quiet, quaint feel of the morning hours around MD and Machrihanish Old, which is right across the street from the MD village, are on the level of Dornoch, which is pretty damn special in my view. Either way, your group will all be winners in Kintyre...just make sure you have proper, QUALITY caddies lined up WELL ahead of the trip. Even with just one per group, they will make for a much better experience, unless you don't want them and wish to go 'round blind.

P.S.- Dunaverty,Dunaverty Dunaverty...don't you dare miss it! A super, sporty little 18 holer at the tip of the Mull, about a scenic 25 minute run from the MD parking lot. It's a blast, with maybe 8-9 par threes, some that are an absolute hoot to play! The lone par 5 is a great hole. It would stand proudly as a championship four on ANY links course in the world. No. 1 and 18 are somewhat weak, but the rest is a treat.

This course is a perfect after-lunch or early evening romp after a morning 18. It's a fairly easy walk, save one stiff climb to a glorious, downhill tee shot to a 270 yd. par four that is just epic, as it sits hard near the sea with a killer view of the lighthouse and course. Play it...you'll be glad you did, especially on a decent weather day.

Adam,

I agree that the local seafood is often hard to find in the towns where it is off-loaded. A rather strange aspect of Scottish life, as you would think they'd want to showcase their delectable fare. They do fetch premium prices for what they catch in France and other nations though, and I suspect that is why so much of it leaves the area as export.

Cheers,
Kris

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