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David Harshbarger

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Mickleson on modern architecture
« on: August 11, 2011, 07:58:31 PM »
Phil just dumped on "modern architects" for making courses too penal, specifically calling out the architect who redid AAC.

He cited the penal nature of the modern course for driving down participation in the game.

Is he lurking here?
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The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Garland Bayley

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 08:26:11 PM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on August 11, 2011, 08:24:45 PM
No, but one would suppose he has been listening to Geoff Oglivy. Geoff of course got his attention by whipping him at Winged Foot.

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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2011, 08:37:54 AM »
Best place to go for all transcripts is ASAP Sports-Link to Thursday's comments here:

http://www.asapsports.com/show_event.php?category=4&date=2011-8-11&title=PGA+CHAMPIONSHIP
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David Harshbarger

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 09:10:16 AM »
Quote from: Ronald Montesano on August 12, 2011, 08:37:54 AM
Best place to go for all transcripts is ASAP Sports-Link to Thursday's comments here:

http://www.asapsports.com/show_event.php?category=4&date=2011-8-11&title=PGA+CHAMPIONSHIP

Funny, I'm sure Phil called out Coore & Crenshaw, Hanse, and Kidd as good moderns, but that didn't show in the transcript.
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The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Niall C

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 09:13:36 AM »
Phil was also very complimentary about Castle Stuart when he played there recently saying something along the lines of it being what modern architecture should be about (or something like that). Interesting to hear him say that when basically he didn't play that well in the tournament.

Niall
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2011, 09:14:48 AM »
David,

You might be thinking of a television interview versus a presser...the presser from the press tent is what appears on ASAP Sports' site.

Ron M.
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David Harshbarger

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2011, 09:32:05 AM »
Ron, I think they cut it out from the end of the second section of the presser, where he says there have been some good ones (architects).  He threw out a few names.  Maybe the transcriptionist didn't know the spellings and left them out?
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The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

William_G

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2011, 09:36:37 AM »
The members can play from any of the tees, the PGA Championship tees are just the farthest back??? What is his gripe???
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2011, 09:41:39 AM »
William, It has little to do with length, as fas what I think he means by penal. All one need to do is look at places like Dubs Dread, to understand how poor design changes can ruin the game, for everybody.

I've been shouted down for many years associating the architectural wrong road with the decline of golfer participation, here in the states.

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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tim Martin

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2011, 09:56:55 AM »
What is the carry over the water on 17 from the members tees? This is the hole that he singled out as providing no options. Any comparison to ANGC`s 12th as previously cited by one of the posters should include the caveat that it is a significantly shorter hole.
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2011, 10:06:12 AM »
Reference to "modern architecture" in this context is wrong.

As most of us here know, "modern architecture" is not what we see at Atlanta Athletic and a number of other courses where they've played US Opens and PGA Championships over recent years. I think most modern practioners would agree that Atlanta Athletic represents a style of golf architecture that actually went out of vogue two decades ago, really.

It's just a shame that organizations like the USGA and the PGA of America continue to contest these championships at too many courses that continue to exemplify an old-fashion, penal style of architecture that Mickelson rightly condemns, in my opinion.

There are many modern golf archtiects preaching a different philosophy than Mr. Jones, for example. And I presume that, perhaps, the forthcoming US Open at Pinehurst No. 2 - for one - may result in others being consulted about the design and set-up of major championship venues. The USGA and PGA of America simply seem to be behind the curve.
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Anthony Gray

Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2011, 11:40:44 AM »


  Pros even like fun courses.

  Anthony

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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2011, 11:55:34 AM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on August 12, 2011, 09:41:39 AM
William, It has little to do with length, as fas what I think he means by penal. All one need to do is look at places like Dubs Dread, to understand how poor design changes can ruin the game, for everybody.




Adam:

You're dead on with this statement, with one caveat, it doesn't ruin the game for the pros.  The real shame is taking a member's course like AAC or a public venue like Cog Hill and making changes to make it harder for the one week it'll be played by the tour. 

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Adam Clayman

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2011, 12:01:24 PM »
Sven, From the comments coming from some pros, after seeing the new Cog Hill #4, I wouldn't be so sure. Yes, they can score easily on the beefed up design tweaks, but even they noticed how boring and no fun it was. At least that was my impression from the few comments I recall. It's really sad too, because Joe's legacy deserved better than trying to win favor of the USGA by using their open doctor, especially, with a little research, they might've realized he was on the outs.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jay Flemma

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2011, 01:29:08 PM »
Quote from: Ronald Montesano on August 12, 2011, 09:14:48 AM
David,

You might be thinking of a television interview versus a presser...the presser from the press tent is what appears on ASAP Sports' site.

Ron M.

Wrong again, Ron - they run both flash interviews, some TV interviews, and the media center interviews.
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2011, 04:42:21 PM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on August 12, 2011, 12:01:24 PM
Sven, From the comments coming from some pros, after seeing the new Cog Hill #4, I wouldn't be so sure. Yes, they can score easily on the beefed up design tweaks, but even they noticed how boring and no fun it was. At least that was my impression from the few comments I recall. It's really sad too, because Joe's legacy deserved better than trying to win favor of the USGA by using their open doctor, especially, with a little research, they might've realized he was on the outs.

Adam:

Not sure if I understand what you are saying.  Are you suggesting that Cog Hill is more fun for the daily fee player now after the changes were made than before?  If so, I strongly disagree.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

JWinick

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Re: Mickleson on modern architecture
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2011, 01:58:58 AM »
While it's likely self-delusion that Phil reads this site, his comments were right out of GCA orthodoxy.  I commend him for stating the obvious, but impolite: modern architecture is depressing interest in the game.  However, it's obvious that clubs need to subtly pressure players to play from the appropriate set of tees, since the male ego often gets in the way.  On difficult courses, it's prudent to remove the back tees because so many players want to play the second from the back as it's what they are use to playing. On a course like AAC, the second from back is probably still 6900 yards and too hard to be enjoyable.  Naturally, playing from too far back also slows play, making it less fun for the player and the other groups. 
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