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Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Switching Nines
« on: August 12, 2011, 11:14:47 PM »
A conversation with a friend earlier today lead me to consider a few interesting questions:

     1. What does an 18-hole club risk or gain, in general, by switching the playing order of its two nines (making the back nine first)?
     2. What notable courses play equally well if the nines are reversed?
     3. What notable courses are improved if the nines are reversed?
     4. What notable courses suffer or decline in quality if the nines are reversed?

The discussion assumes that the playing order for nines can be reversed, so a number of courses (e.g. TOC) can't be included.

I look forward to responses, especially as they relate to how the experience of playing your home or favorite courses would change if front and back nines were switched.

WW

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Switching Nines
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2011, 06:20:19 AM »
Wade - I think some of the more clinical architects design such that both nines offer the same highs and lows. I personally think trying to get a balance of equal par in the nines, distribution and spacing of the short holes, direction change and distrubition of longer, shorter, easy and hard holes are things that are guidelines but really the land should dictate the real rules. Moving the mountain just to make it par 72 is silly in my opinion. I think each course is different so it just a case of how it is, I think a good start and a good finish is best, or a weakish finish anyway is best avoided. I suppose ANGC was improved with the switch, Amen Corner seems best in the sequencig now rather than in the first 4.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Switching Nines
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2011, 07:01:03 AM »
Royal Queensland just reversed their nines.
I was up there last week and it seems there is the predictable 50/50 split amongst the members - but one woman (she was very nice about it) asked me 'why I let the Captain change the nines because now all the toilets are in the wrong place"

There are now 3 par fives in the middle of the round - 7,9 and 10 - that were formerly 1, 16 and 18.
Both nines had penultimate holes as par 3s. One (now the 8th) is 210 yards and the other is a treacherous 130 yarder to a small green.
I much prefer finishing with the short one as the 17th.

There are pros and cons to both ways but probably the beginning to the is better now - they are better holes as 1,2 and 3 than they were as 10,11 and 12.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Switching Nines
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2011, 10:24:07 AM »
Wade:

From anecdotal experience, this happens much more often than you would think. 

Partly, it's just one of those topics where every client has an opinion, and there's a reasonable chance their opinion will differ from the architect's.  The Tour has done it quite often, too, for logistics reasons or something or other. 

I can remember discussing it for my own courses on six or seven different occasions [which is a lot, considering I've built a fair number of courses that don't return at #9].  It almost seems that if you don't design to the cliche of a fairly wide open first hole and a harder tenth hole and a crescendo finish, you are inviting someone to suggest turning it around.

That said, at least half of the courses I know of that switched nines after the course had been open for years, wound up switching them BACK later on.  Part of that is just familiarity -- you hate it when what you've always referred to as the 2nd hole at Somerset Hills is now the 11th.  But the rest is an admission that maybe the original architect had reasons for his choice.

Anthony Gray

Re: Switching Nines
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2011, 10:34:51 AM »


  I would think you would see this less with modern courses. It seems now that the finishing holes have to be hard as hell to maake people happy. I like TOC because you always walk off happy. My home course's final two par 4s I can't reach in two. They are holes 16 and 18.

  Anthony


Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Switching Nines
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2011, 10:45:07 AM »
Ojai Valley seems to have switched their 9's monthly over the last 10 years.

Anytime I discuss the course with someone, it becomes an exercise in futility.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Switching Nines
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2011, 10:54:52 AM »
Indian Canyon switched thier 9s...which was a shame because the back 9 was always better for last as it is the "funner" 9.

But they did it because the original routing started off with 2 reachable par 5s.  Those two holes would always clog up the start of the course and slow everything up....and it would have a trickle down effect the entire day.  I can't even count the number of times I was standing on the 3rd tee and was already 40 minutes into the round. Now by the time folks hit those holes after the turn, they are in thier rythmn of the round and can usually get thru them much quicker.

The 5 hr Sunday rounds seem to be a thing of the past out there.

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Switching Nines
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2011, 04:08:59 PM »
I appreciate these responses.

I'm wondering, though: What great courses would be compromised by reversing nines?

What notable courses would be improved?

I tend to think of a round of golf as an experience and do look for the dynamics presented by hole order and routing.  Am I taking these things too seriously?

WW

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Switching Nines
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2011, 05:11:06 PM »
Muirfield would be okay reversed I think, though I am not sure how Open championship logistics would figure out. Of the UK courses I am familiar with hardly any top ones actually have returning nines. Birkdale would not be so good IMO.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Switching Nines
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2011, 01:03:27 PM »
Anyone care to comment on how the PGA, and particularly, the final round, would have been affected if the nines had been reversed?

WW

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