News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Peter Pallotta

Or Narrowing Your Focus
« on: August 04, 2011, 11:30:44 PM »
I feel fortunate to have experienced a depth and richness of feeling (and perhaps even of insight)because of my tendency to listen to or read almost exclusively the work of only ONE great artist, for as long and as often as I can. 

Peter   

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2011, 07:58:55 AM »
PP-Both provocative and cryptic at the same time. Care to elaborate or is it your feeling that the bait has been set?

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2011, 08:08:29 AM »
Peter,

I'm flattered.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2011, 08:09:03 AM »

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2011, 08:20:06 AM »
Peter - there is a lot of truth to this. In college I listened almost exclusively to the Dead. I had hundreds of shows on tape and knew the intricacies of each. I knew what the band sounded like each year and how those years were different. I knew when they were doing something different when they tried something. Others asked me why I did this as every song sounded the same and tere was not any difference from versiom of the song to another. But, for me, who had put in many hours listening there was a distinct difference between many of the performances. I had a far greater underst and emotional connection because I delved into one group instead of just sampling different groups here and there. What made this possible with the Dead, and later Bruce Hornsby, for me was that their musical style encompassed so many genres from country to folk to rock to reggae to bluegrass to jazz. Hence i could listen to one group and not get bored because there was so much variety within the one group. But it took sustained listening to truly get all of this.

I find this the same with golf course architecture. I think a great analogy with my music example is Pinehurst #2. Like the Dead it is highly acclaimed by many. But, there is a large swath of people that do not get it, just like the Dead. I have played the course hundreds of times and developed a true appreciation for the angles, the greens, the slopes, the subtleties that the one time player is missing. I still look forward to playing the course and trying to master a particular hole or shot. Like the Dead there is great variety within the course - short, medium and long par 3s, short par 4s and long, ball-busting par 4s, reachabke par 5s and unreachable par 5s. There is great rhythym and pace to the course.

I certajnly enjoy everry chance I get to play a great course, even if it is just one time. I truly enjoyed Ballyneal the one day I played it in 2010. But it was even better to play it again this year over a three day period. I got to see different characterisitcs of the holes and the variety is endless. In fact I think I prefer repeat plays (at keast playing a course twice) on trips as opposed to playing everything once. It may take me longer to play the courses I want to play, but I will enjoy each of them more.

Even my home course, which most people hate, I have grown to like. After several years, I have learned the intricacies of each hole, how to play them, and the strategy for different hole locations and different winds. I have a much greater appreciation for that course than probably anyone else and I have probably played it more than just a handful of people.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2011, 08:26:11 AM »
Great thread...and a damn fine post Steve.

I agree with the sentiment of this thread and the broadening your horizons thread.  In fact, I am kind of moving from one to the other in my personal golf life.  Being new to the game, I want/wanted to check all sorts of things out, that is I wanted to broaden my horizons.  I've done a decent job of that, but I've still got a few more things I need to experience.  But along the way I've discovered a few courses that I love and want to play again and again and again.  In fact, there is a roster of about 5 courses that I'd be happy to play for the rest of my life.  I could narrow my focus to them and be a satisfied golfer.

Frankly, I see nothing wrong with either approach.  We are all just passing the time...so do what you enjoy doing.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 10:20:21 AM »
Thanks, gents. You're welcome, JC. You're so vain, you know that?

Tim - ha, ha, no, no bait set, it was just late and I wrote as simply as I could.

Steve - good post, and that's it exactly.  But I'd argue that when you study one musician/group that closely, you not only get a depth of emotion and appreciation for THAT musician/group, you also gain much greater insight into MUSIC ITSELF.  In other words, I believe that I can get a BETTER understanding of the construction/form and beauty of music in general by immersing myself in the work of ONE musician/group than I can by exploring the works of many, many musicians/groups.  I know that is my basic temperament anyway, so I won't and can't argue that this is the best way to learn; but, as I think CS Lewis once wrote : "A man who loves and is devoted to even one thing, not for what it will bring him or for what others will think of him but for the thing itself, is thereby shielded from most of the devil's snares".  (I'm not doing the line justice, but it was something like that).

And of course, Mac is right -- and a man in his life plays many parts.  

Peter
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 11:51:23 AM by PPallotta »

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2011, 11:23:09 AM »
Peter - there is a lot of truth to this. In college I listened almost exclusively to the Dead.

That's four years of listening to music you'll never get back... :P

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2011, 11:29:57 AM »
I loved every minute of it and see no reason to get those years back. I think that is precisely Peter's point.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2011, 11:55:07 AM »
Steve:

Sorry if that came off a bit harsh. I think Peter's argument has some validity -- if you're talking about someone like Miles Davis, or The Rolling Stones. The Dead may be the most over-rated group of musicians from the 20th Century.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2011, 12:02:43 PM »
While I think the Grateful Dead was one of the most important rock bands of all time and Garcia was one of if not the greatest guitarists ever, the point is the narrowing of focus doesn't have to be centered around something truly great. See Peter's quote from C.S. Lewis and my reference to playing my home course. I don't think the narrowing needs to be centered around PV, CPC, etc. to be worthwhile.

The more I think about the more I conclude that if all you ever did was play a course once, maybe twice, and you moved on to the next course you would have a fairly shallow understanding of architecture. How would you truly know the impact of a subtle feature, or even a bold one, if you did not have many, many experiences with it. Doing this at even a sub elite course is helpful.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2011, 12:11:18 PM »
Good point Steve. 

You certainly do not want your experience to be a mile wide and an inch deep.  I think the key is to find balance with regards to the broad vs. narrow approaches. 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2011, 12:12:41 PM »
I've decided in the interest of diversity and openmindedness to narrow my focus exclusively to Robert Bruce Harris courses.  For the next year I will be only be playing his courses and doing detailed photo threads on each as well as an exhaustive academic historical study of mower widths correlated individually with an aerial measurement of bunker/green distances on each course which will be extensively footnoted...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2011, 12:17:11 PM »
Now that might be an inch wide and a mile deep. 

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2011, 12:48:37 PM »
Phil:  Do you know what Miles' opinion of Garcia was?  Well, let's just say that the Dead never opened up for Miles but Miles did open for them.  Ironically, both were HUGE on experimentation and pushing the envelope...sometimes making completely unique breakthroughs and, at other times, failing miserably.  THAT to me is another important parallel between great music and great golf architecture...or any art for that matter.

Let's take Steve's post and expand it.  The Dead were typically either loved or hated.  I actually didn't get it in college - I was more into funk, acid jazz, etc.  Immediately after graduation, however, I hopped into an SUV with some friends and headed out on tour.  Then, after seeing 5 shows, I finally got it - as Steve says there were seemingly infinite ways to play the same song whether by changing tempo, time signature, even styles (remember Jerry was a world class banjo picker even with only 4 fingers on his picking hand).  They were risk-takers in the truest sense as are/were the greatest architects.  Later on, I discovered Fela Kuti, a Nigerian afrobeat pioneer who sometimes recorded 20 or even 30 minute long songs.  Again, controversy attracts attention positive or negative.

Think about Pac Dunes 16th green or the 14th hole at Bandon Trails.  People either hate it or love it.  This concept goes way back to the Golden Age masters.  
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 12:55:48 PM by Will Lozier »

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2011, 01:06:50 PM »
Will:

Miles opening for the Dead probably says more about the habits of concert-going ticket buyers and concert promoters than it does about the artistic merits of either artist. Remember, Robert James Waller sold a lot of books...

Miles pushed the envelope in ways few artists can match. I just don't see the Dead as being nearly as relevant in 20th Century popular music as Miles (I can barely stomach writing them in the same sentence). One good guitar player, but a band with a longstanding habit of meandering off into listenable but hardly scintillating territory.

Remember that Peter's original post talked about one GREAT artist. Longevity is hardly a criteria for greatness, as Jud's post aptly points out (Jud -- he has done some good work ;D).

Bill Hyde

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2011, 01:11:29 PM »
Steve, great insight into the benefits of devotion. I, too, spent a great deal of time listening to and following the Dead. And, to your point, it helped me understand nuance and its beauty. And I think the analogy between music and architecture is spot on. For instance, my course just had the greens re-done, trees taken out, new tees (with new yardages and angles) and it has taken the golf course I have played hundreds of times over the past 8 years and made it completely new again. Like when Brent took over for Keith. I also think the "narrowing of focus" in one area makes it possible for someone to get deeply into something new with the same level of commitment. By the way, this being Jerry week on Sirius/XM, it's great to hear his philosophy on life and music. He's essentially a libertarian and feels that whatever turns you on is ok by him...case in point, some interviewer was ragging on Bowie and Elton John and he merely said they were into "entertainment" which has its own traditions and its own place, it just wasn't where he was at. I think the same philosophy could apply in the golf architecture realm...some guys design courses that are flashy, others more subtle. I happen to prefer one over the other, but I appreciate them both nonetheless.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2011, 01:17:31 PM »
I'd rather listen to only Miles and the Dead than have to endure a Coldplay disc in the name of diversity...I'd also venture to guess that I have more and have seen more of Miles and the Dead than 99% of the guys here...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2011, 01:21:07 PM »
I'd rather listen to only Miles and the Dead than have to endure a Coldplay disc in the name of diversity...I'd also venture to guess that I have more and have seen more of Miles and the Dead than 99% of the guys here...

Careful now Jud...I'm a big Coldplay fan!!  ;D

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2011, 01:29:04 PM »
Kalen then you'll be happy to know that I went to a Coldplay show at a smallish venue only to see the opening act and then left when they came on!
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2011, 01:30:31 PM »
Kalen then you'll be happy to know that I went to a Coldplay show at a smallish venue only to see the opening act and then left when they came on!

Lol..I saw them in a large venue (20,000 seat arena) two years ago and couldn't get enough.

I guess the generation gap is hard at work!!  ;D

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2011, 01:33:11 PM »
I'd like to claim it's because I knew they'd only write one actual good song and that they sucked but in reality it's because I had a fairly sizable wager on the NBA finals.  Also, personally I wouldn't wave the Coldplay flag as your token of hip youth music.  Or even youth music for that matter....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2011, 01:36:48 PM »
I new a lot of Dead Heads back in college, and traveled in the same circles, but I never got it, either.  However, I still gravitate to the great artists, while also enjoying listening to all manner of new music, because I find you never know when or where you are going to come across that next great artist.

And the really good stuff in my experience continues to yield insights years on.  In that class, I place Bowie, Miles, The Beatles, Bauhaus, early Talking Heads, Coltrane, and of course Radiohead.

Oddly, as time goes on, the more I hear the Stones, the less I hear in it.

The really important part of this, though, is that you have to be willing to reflect on the art, not just experience it.  Without conscious reflection and attention, there is no opportunity to deeper understanding.

(And the last Dead show we attended we left after Little Feat, the opener.  If any of the fans climbing the fences could comprehend that we were abandoning our ticketed rights before Jerry hit the stage, they would have died right there.)
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2011, 01:42:13 PM »
Phil:  I love both Miles Davis and the GD...but the latter had the greater effect on "popular" music without a doubt.  While both mixed multiple genres, Miles was limited in that his music never encompassed country for example - a large sector of popular music indeed - or bluegrass.  He did mix funk, rock, and jazz (Bitches Brew) and did so expertly.  And his mix of simple blues and jazz on Kind of Blue is in my opinion the most recognizable "jazz" music ever.  But, I would still say that the Dead have had a greater overall impact based not on albums, but on their incredible live shows and the small country that followed their every move.  

Now, please don't say you are a Steve Miller fan because Miles thought he was a clown! :D

Amongst modern designers, I would say that Dye was a bit in the GD mold - turning old ideas on their head and being intentionally different.  I haven't yet decided what architect reminds me of Miles...maybe Strantz?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 01:47:34 PM by Will Lozier »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Or Narrowing Your Focus
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2011, 01:45:02 PM »
I'd like to claim it's because I knew they'd only write one actual good song and that they sucked but in reality it's because I had a fairly sizable wager on the NBA finals.  Also, personally I wouldn't wave the Coldplay flag as your token of hip youth music.  Or even youth music for that matter....

I'm no Lady Gaga, latest trend setting, band wagonner when it comes to youthful music.  I've been following ColdPlay now for 10+ years ...long before they were the huge global band that they are now!

Just as a reference point, U2 is my all time fav group.  They go all the way back to my high school days in the mid-80s.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back