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Thomas Dai

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Over-conditioned courses
« on: February 14, 2023, 10:22:02 AM »
Lists seem to be liked herein.
What would be some nominations of courses that are over-conditioned, that could be less manicured etc and would essentially still be just as good to play.
Atb




Sean_A

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Re: Over-conditioned courses
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2023, 11:36:08 AM »
Lists seem to be liked herein.
What would be some nominations of courses that are over-conditioned, that could be less manicured etc and would essentially still be just as good to play.
Atb


For a start, just about all heathland courses are over-conditioned to the point where they are now parkland-heathland hybrids.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood, Sandiway & Ladybank

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-conditioned courses
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2023, 11:54:36 AM »
Too many courses donít monitor the sprinkler timers before and after rain in the Northeast. There is one near me where I see them on while itís raining. :o  Ground game out the window.


Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-conditioned courses
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2023, 12:11:50 PM »
WAs thinking about a starting a similar thread yesterday.  My sense is that the new hybrid grasses have changed the ball game in major major ways.  Lots of great things have come from it.  For example...in the "old days" say 40 years ago places like St Louis, Wash DC, etc.  seemed to have no reasonable alternative for grasses that could survive regularly through all 4 seasons.  Bermuda would get killed in the ice storms of winter and bent could not make it thru the heat and humidity of summer. 


That has changed big time.  Now I visit third tier courses that have greens and fairways that are literally perfect.  And visit to Ireland last summer showed the conditions in GB&I have changed in major way there as well. 


The above is absolutely great in a number of ways that are very very obvious, but somehow I have always thought one of the wonderful things about our game is that is simulated life and that is one of its "tests" and "charms".  Life is full of good and bad bounces and "lies" as was golf...not as much any more. Keeping one's head clear and focused while one's ball was in a bad lie after a perfect drive took great concentration and I think was an important "test" and usually (obviously not always) evened its impact out over a 72 hole event and often within 18 holes.


IMO lots of things in life are "double edged swords" and this may be another.  Fact is, it is hard to go backwards and reverse the clock and results of progress...and even an old XXXX like me must admit the net of this sword's double edge is probably better now that before.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-conditioned courses
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2023, 07:03:29 PM »
Is there a difference between over-conditioned and over-watered? What would be an example of a course that is over-conditioned but not over-watered?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-conditioned courses
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2023, 09:27:50 PM »
Played 9 at a bare bones ciity muni today I frequented 40-45 years ago.(could do a whole thread on it)
Clearly they found some money at some point because the tees were level(and overseeded) and the greens were quite fast, especially given the old school slope on many of the greens. They weren't all that good though. just fast ::)
The fairways were also "better" than they used to be(clearly some modern regrassing), but quite a few were more sand than grass due to high traffic from golf carts.
Saw plenty of groups flying around with single riders in 3-4 balls.  :o ::) :'(
No doubt it'll be back to the dirt I remember soon enough.


To Paul's point about the art of creating a shot from a poor fairway, I rarely see it anymore because even on perfectly condidtioned courses I see players rolling the ball over routinely...heavy sigh.


The most ironic thing about the whole over conditioning is that the worst lies I see in fairways are on super high end courses with super tight, often wet, and very fast fairways.Far worse than the lies I got today on hard pan compaction.
See more fat and thin shots than ever on super tight fairways due to the middle of the club being well above the center of the ball unless a very good player.
At least back in the day a "roll it over" guy could find an imperfect tuft or weed to prop it up on. ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Trenham

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Re: Over-conditioned courses
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2023, 06:05:52 AM »
If you want to know if a course is overly manicured, look at the rough first.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Max Prokopy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-conditioned courses
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2023, 08:06:43 AM »
Most courses in the mid-Atlantic US.  It's a tough place to grow grass. 

John Blain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-conditioned courses
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2023, 03:05:30 PM »
If you want to know if a course is overly manicured, look at the rough first.
I agree, Mike. I know it sounds crazy but I have found in a lot of cases the more that a club spends on maintenance the less enjoyable it is to play. So many courses are being maintained to the extreme.
I played a top 30 course last fall where the fairways and approaches were like kitchen floors and the greens were running about 2 feet faster on the stimp than what they were designed for. You needed a PGA Tour level short game to be able to hit chips and pitches given the tightness of the lies. I asked the 3 members that I was playing with if they enjoyed these conditions. They all said "no, not really" but they all pay dearly financially for the privilege.
A Superintendent once told something I have always remembered: He said "It is amazing how much more enjoyable the game would be and how much less expensive if you simply raise the height of the mower."

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-conditioned courses
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2023, 10:05:42 PM »
Around 1990 I went to Carmel with some oil industry buddies for a couple rounds at Pebble Beach.


We also managed to play the cool nine at Pacific Grove a couple times. I think everyone actually enjoyed that more than Pebble.
Tim Weiman

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over-conditioned courses
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2023, 10:41:41 PM »
If you want to know if a course is overly manicured, look at the rough first.
I agree, Mike. I know it sounds crazy but I have found in a lot of cases the more that a club spends on maintenance the less enjoyable it is to play. So many courses are being maintained to the extreme.
I played a top 30 course last fall where the fairways and approaches were like kitchen floors and the greens were running about 2 feet faster on the stimp than what they were designed for. You needed a PGA Tour level short game to be able to hit chips and pitches given the tightness of the lies. I asked the 3 members that I was playing with if they enjoyed these conditions. They all said "no, not really" but they all pay dearly financially for the privilege.
A Superintendent once told something I have always remembered: He said "It is amazing how much more enjoyable the game would be and how much less expensive if you simply raise the height of the mower."


This.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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