[Sean_A]

Dale

The 18th sweeps in from the left or the other left?

Mark

Thanks for the comments on the changes.  I wondered about the 6th not because anything looked odd (other than the swarming rough around the green), but because of the odd walk back to the 7th tee. 

#2 would be a bit odd as a dog leg right no?  The bunker scheme seems to fit the current green wonderfully.  I think it is my favourite green complex on the course. 

Concerning #18, I know there is meant to be some wisdom involved in placing bunkers online with areas golfers don't want to be anyway, but I will never understand it.  A bad shot is a bad shot.  I don't know why anybody would be aiming left off the tee and the bunkers aren't going to stop a ball which is threatening the houses. 

Ciao

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Sean,

I think the logic is that if you aim straight and pull-hook you will hit the houses, but by placing the bunkers there you are encouraged to aim right when a pull-hook will be less disastrous. It doesn't work for my left-hander's slice, of course, but I'm not strong enough to hit it into the houses.

[Dale Jackson]

Dale

The 18th sweeps in from the left or the other left?

No left - the first one!  I mean that from the tee, the visual in the pic draws your eye from the left of the photo with the bunkers and I do not think that would be true without them.

[Sean_A]

Dale

I spose I don't understand what you are saying.  To my eye the hole flows from the right as in a draw off the tee.  The two furthest bunkers on the left are sort of in no man's land.  To me, they don't impact on the strategy of the hole in the least.  They are merely pretty things for BSs.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Dale

I spose I don't understand what you are saying.  To my eye the hole flows from the right as in a draw off the tee.  The two furthest bunkers on the left are sort of in no man's land.  To me, they don't impact on the strategy of the hole in the least.  They are merely pretty things for BSs.

Ciao

SEan,

I agree that to a mere mortal the two furthest bunkers on the left are in no-man's land.  However, a quick guestimate (based on the Strokesaver image on the club website) suggests that the first is between 290 and 300 yards from the tee off the whites.  It will, therefore, impact strategy for a flat belly (like you!)

[Sean_A]

Mark

I hit a very solid drive on the last and just covered the second bunker, but not enough to escape the intolerable rough on the backside of the bunker - from the yellow markers.  To reach that second set is a huge drive into the wind that only true flat bellies could be worried about and if that were the case, they could flick wedges out to the green.  If I had to guess, I would say its close to 330 yards (maybe more as they could be as close as 80 yards shy of the green - I don't recall because they seemed so far out of play it didn't matter) to reach those from the yellow tees. 

Pietro

Yes, I am sure Dr Mac had guiding principles, but there would always be good reasons not to adhere to all of them all of the time.  Its probably like good bunker placement where maybe only half are in play for any given player on any given day!

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Great show Sean.  I’ve said it before but even as a London homer there isn’t a finer pair of inland courses in GB+I than Alwoodley and Ganton.


When you’ve seen a few courses you realise 2 D Photo’s are rubbish.  Spent Sunday afternoon assuring my mother that Sandwich was not flat and no disrespect Sean, but the bowl on 17 is enormous.





I love the 5th, sits there beautiful and plays even better. 

Happy memories thanks to Mark and Nick Leafe.

[Neil_Crafter]

Pics were requested of the 18th from "the old days". Here are two with Mac in them, from the tee and near the green. These were amongst a group of Alwoodley photographs that I purchased that were originally owned by Perry Maxwell.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Neil, Thanks for the pics.

Note that bunker is not raked. Several Mac pictures show him in bunkers. In the top photo the shed to the right of the clubhouse is the professional's hut. It acted as the clubhouse for the first year or so, the clubhouse seen here dating from 1908. It was extended a little in 1928 - the men's part was extended but not the ladies'. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Thanks, Neil. That second pic provides an excellent example of Mac's application of military entrenchment engineering to bunker design.

Note the flashing, the steepness of the face, and the flatness where he's standing. The idea is for balls to roll to the bottom and not get marooned on the bank or face.

If anyone has the pic from GA of the bunkering on the 1st there are other bunkering elements that relate to his military career and specifically to his notions of camouflage.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I thought you might like a few Alwoodley stories:

The story is that a Party from Harewood House was visiting the Club and were exercising the privilege of Honorary Membership. Not knowing one of the Ladies in the Party, Mr Tomlinson asked her ‘Are you sleeping with the Earl of Harewood?’ The answer is not recorded.

Ralph Middleton’s reminiscences include the following canine incident: ‘For very many years, the rule has been that dogs are not allowed on the course: it must be confessed that the rule was more strictly applied in former days than it is now. In May 1923, the Hon. Secretary at the time was playing in a four-ball with three of his friends and, playing down the 3rd hole, he noticed a large cavalcade coming towards them along the 15th hole of four players, four caddies and some onlookers. He noticed that one of the players had a dog on a lead: so, detaching himself from his party, he walked across to the 15th hole to point out that dogs were not allowed on the course. However, when he was about 30 yards away from the party he turned and retreated to the 3rd hole! This was because the visitor with the dog was recognised as the then Prince of Wales (later King Edward VIII) who was staying at Harewood House and playing the Course.’

One of Alwoodley’s most famous anecdotes concerns an elderly member who was reclining on the chaise longue in the end room. A youngish new member entered the room, politely saying, ‘Good morning.’ The elderly man ignored him and remained behind his newspaper. ‘Nice day,’ said the young man. Again the elderly member ignored him. ‘They say the clouds will clear and we’ll have a sunny day for golf,’ chirped the young member. At which point the elderly member lowered his newspaper, picked up the telephone to the steward, and said: ‘There’s a young man here who wants to talk about the weather. Come here, will you, and humour him.’

A member playing foursomes took his gun-dog with him. The dog was instructed to sit on arrival at the teeing ground. Having driven from the 3rd tee the member forgot to instruct his dog to walk on. In fact he forgot about his dog until walking up the 16th fairway he spotted it still sitting obediently at the 3rd tee.

[Sean_A]

Pics were requested of the 18th from "the old days". Here are two with Mac in them, from the tee and near the green. These were amongst a group of Alwoodley photographs that I purchased that were originally owned by Perry Maxwell.

Neil

Thanks for the photos.  Looking at the 18th tee shot closely it does appear that the new bunkering helps to create a less flat look to the hole. Does that make sense?  Perhaps the obvious fairway cut lines in the old pic make it look flatter as well.

I would very much like to see any other Alwoodley pix you have.  

I would also point out the wee dip just in the front part of the green which can be easily seen in the old pic.  Sadly, the pix reveal how much the 18th fairway width/short rough has shrunk.  I wonder if more bunkers used to be surrounded by fairway and are now cutting in from the rough.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Brian,

Alwoodley is a wonderful course.  Better than Ganton, though?  Not in my book.  Certainly as good as places like the Berkshire and Swinley but Ganton is as good as inland golf gets.  Interested to hear where you'd rate Beau.

[Mark Pearce]

Brian,

I have played Swinley several times, at least half a dozen, so have seen a variety of different conditions.  I do think it's lovely.  I think Ganton is world class, though.

[Jon Wiggett]

It is also interesting that the bunker in the second pic is not weeded. I am not sure that the 18th fairway is narrower but rather the trees now down the left make it feel so.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Sean will no doubt update his tour, and I intend to do one of my own (for good measure!), but although I'm detecting a good deal of praise for Alwoodley in this thread, I am surprised to see it is a bit muted.

Personally, I am comfortable in saying, after my round today, that not only is it one of the really special places in the world of golf, but also a fantastic golf course that is underrated in not being a serious contender in the conversation for second best inland course in the UK behind the Old course at Sunningdale.

See updated tour.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I have thought about it overnight and one thing that did occur to me was the exact point you made in your summation, Sean. It's hard to point to any particular standout or "all world" holes. When I think of Swinley or Sunningdale Old, I can point to 3 or 4 at least and maybe that is why Alwoodley struggles to break into the upper echelons in the rankings - but then again one might say the same thing about Ganton? Having said that, there are no weak holes either and it is stunningly beautiful. The icing on the cake is the amazing clubhouse and ambience. If I lived in the area, I would give my right arm to be a member.

Sometimes when you get a bunch of standout holes, you only think that they are standout because they are emphasised by what are actually some weakish holes (definitely not the case with Sunningdale though)...

Alwoodley is a cracker. I'd probably rate it along with Pulborough as my favourite inland course in GB&I.... Have yet to see Ganton.

[Sean_A]

I have thought about it overnight and one thing that did occur to me was the exact point you made in your summation, Sean. It's hard to point to any particular standout or "all world" holes. When I think of Swinley or Sunningdale Old, I can point to 3 or 4 at least and maybe that is why Alwoodley struggles to break into the upper echelons in the rankings - but then again one might say the same thing about Ganton? Having said that, there are no weak holes either and it is stunningly beautiful. The icing on the cake is the amazing clubhouse and ambience. If I lived in the area, I would give my right arm to be a member.

I spose it depends on one's take.  Some think to be great, a course must have great holes.  Most courses with great holes also have holes which are less than good or poor even.  Since Ganton is in the thread, take the 18th for example.  Its a dog's dinner hole that doesn't work on any level.  To me, that goes a long way to levelling out a great hole such as the 10th - probably the only hole at Ganton I would say is great.  Although, I think the 17th could be awesome if a 275-300 yard tee existed. 

Generally speaking, most folks way over-rate holes, to the point where they will claim 4-5 great holes per course.  I think 4-5 great holes per course is an extreme rarity.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I have thought about it overnight and one thing that did occur to me was the exact point you made in your summation, Sean. It's hard to point to any particular standout or "all world" holes. When I think of Swinley or Sunningdale Old, I can point to 3 or 4 at least and maybe that is why Alwoodley struggles to break into the upper echelons in the rankings - but then again one might say the same thing about Ganton? Having said that, there are no weak holes either and it is stunningly beautiful. The icing on the cake is the amazing clubhouse and ambience. If I lived in the area, I would give my right arm to be a member.

I spose it depends on one's take.  Some think to be great, a course must have great holes.  I am not sure that is the case with me.  A steady diet of very good holes in a fine setting without any obvious weak or just holes that aren't right is very difficult to beat.  Most courses with great holes also have holes which are less than good or poor even.  Since Ganton is in the thread, take the 18th for example.  Its a dog's dinner hole that doesn't work on any level.  To me, that goes a long way to levelling out a great hole such as the 10th - probably the only hole at Ganton I would say is great.  Although, I think the 17th could be awesome if a 275-300 yard tee existed.  

Generally speaking, most folks way over-rate holes, to the point where they will claim 4-5 great holes per course.  I think 4-5 great holes per course is an extreme rarity.

Ciao

The whole is the everything for me.

Therefore I don't believe a whole should be compromised for one strong hole that also generates a weak or out of place one.

[Mark Pearce]

It does have to be about the whole, I agree.  That said, I'm surprised to see Sean suggest that the 10th is probably the only great hole at Ganton.  In fact the 10th probably wouldn't be in my top 5 holes on the course.  I do think, however, that the 14th is one of the very best short par 4s I have seen anywhere (as good, for instance as the 9th at CPC) and is clearly a great hole.  I'm puzzled by the suggestion that 17 would be a better hole with a 275-300 yard tee, why would that be better?  Also, I agree that the 18th could do with some work with a chain saw and the road is a peculiarity but I don't see it as a bad hole and, with trees removed on the LHS could be a very good one.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Incidentally, I do think that a few peculiarities can fit in to a great whole whilst not seeming weak or out of character.... In fact, oft-times, a great whole is defined by a few quirks and subtleties that can add the variety in hole types whilst keeping a consistent, stylistic thread through the 18....

No.17 at Alwoodley might be such an example...

[Sean_A]

It does have to be about the whole, I agree.  That said, I'm surprised to see Sean suggest that the 10th is probably the only great hole at Ganton.  In fact the 10th probably wouldn't be in my top 5 holes on the course.  I do think, however, that the 14th is one of the very best short par 4s I have seen anywhere (as good, for instance as the 9th at CPC) and is clearly a great hole.  I'm puzzled by the suggestion that 17 would be a better hole with a 275-300 yard tee, why would that be better?  Also, I agree that the 18th could do with some work with a chain saw and the road is a peculiarity but I don't see it as a bad hole and, with trees removed on the LHS could be a very good one.

Mark

I was thinking the green site is one of the best on the course and hitting at it from 230-245 doesn't really do it justice.  There isn't a great shedding nature which creates awkward short grass play, but if one had to approach from 50-100 yards it would be quite a difficult shot.   As it is, one just gives it a rip and sees what gives.  

Sheehy

I too am not totally sold on that 10-12 corner.  You can feel the humidity increase dramatically on the 11th and the claustrophobic feel of that low spot is very much out of character with the remainder of the course.  

Ciao

[James Boon]

Sean,

Thanks for the updated tour.

It was a fantastic weekend at Ganton and Alwoodley, and thankfully the weather was a vast improvement on the last time I played the two courses! Some of my points below will relate to both courses not just Alwoodley...

Ganton feels like a good hard working northerner to me, a great challenge that might take a while to fully come to terms with, while Alwoodley has a good deal of southern sophistication, and its beauty is clearer to see on just one play. I'm struggling to separate the two, but am still leaning slightly towards Ganton for some reason but only just!

And I'll hold my hands and say a, I was wrong and b, I cant be trusted to judge width! Having looked at the aerials when I got home, Ganton is very narrow in places!

Sean,

Are you thinking of the 9th hole at Ganton, the short par 5, when you say the 10th?

And I was surprised after playing the 17th at Ganton (on reflection better as a long par 3) and the 9th at Alwoodley from the new blue tee at 235 or so, that you dont seem to like long par 3s. I personally like the challenge of them as the temptation is to hit a fairway wood but at times its a soft driver thats needed or you even need to hit a full one at times and thats tough to bring oneself to do. I thought it was only the top pros that complained about long par 3s?  

Brian,

You mention a lot of awkward green to tee walks at Ganton??? There are plenty where you walk straight from the green onto the next tee, and a few where I suspect the lengthening has made for a bit of a walk back, ie the 2nd tee, but I really dont think its got a lot of awkward green to tee walks?

Now for Alwoodley, I think you are right that some tree clearance around 10 to 12 would help. From the 1940s aerial photo I'd say a lot of these are self set, and clearing out would improve the heathland habitat, perhaps improve the conditions for the turf, open up some great views, and make life a bit safer when teeing off on 12 as you would be able to see who was on the 8th green and 9th tee rather than just randomly shouting "Fore!"

Having said that, I quite like the change in character of that part as for me it adds to the flow and variety of the course, rather than a jolting change in character.

Cheers,

James

[Thomas Dai]

Very nice photo tour. Thank you for sharing it with us. Good to see the yee olde day photographs as well.

From looking at the tour photos there appears to be a significant amount of cross fairway drainage on quite a few of the holes. Is Alwoodley located on a particularly wet site?

All the best

[Jon Wiggett]

Very nice photo tour. Thank you for sharing it with us. Good to see the yee olde day photographs as well.

From looking at the tour photos there appears to be a significant amount of cross fairway drainage on quite a few of the holes. Is Alwoodley located on a particularly wet site?

All the best

Thomas,

Alwoodley has quite a lot of 'rig & furrow' maybe that is what you have seen. The site is well draining and Alwoodley is a very good winter course.

Jon

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