[John Kavanaugh]

I think bodog.com just posted 8 to 1 odds that Cameron Diaz won't jump off a bridge in the next hour.  Not a good bet.

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

If they didn't, you'd be out there all day.
Going back to the tee after taking an unplayable a few times would tie up the entire golf course.
Now, if you paid the caddies by the hour you might find things different.
That doesn't happen in competitions.

My first two rounds there the only tee shots I hit it into the crap on were on number nine where I hit it WAAAAY right. Both times my ball ended up on an open patch 40 yards left of where my ball was, within 3 feet of each other each time.

They do it out of habit no matter what your handicap, especially for guests to keep play moving because they want you playing fast there. It is what it is.

[Dale_McCallon]

Pat,

As far as one having a "clear shot", I don't know it would always be clear or not, but based on their posts, Sean and Carr were helped immensely.  One saying his ball was 40 yards from where his ball landed, the other saying he had an clear wedge to the green. 

I'm fairly sure I'll never get to play PV, but if I knew that I was able to "get around" the place because my caddy lifted my ball and placed the ball in better conditions to speed up play it wouldn't be the same.  If were a 25 handicapper and being hosted at a club with a reputation for toughness (PV, Oakmont, etc), I would expect that there might be some times I might have to just pick up and move on.   I certainly wouldn't expect my caddy to improve my positions all day.

What is the caddy rule if you are in the fairway, but in a divot...move that as well?  Why not just find a nice uphill putt for everyone regardless of where the approach ends up?  That would speed up play too.


 

[Kalen Braley]

I have to agree with Dale here in concept.

I can't even count the number of times a course has been crucified/disparaged/dismissed on this forum for having unplayable crap just off the fairways.  Whether it be OB, hazards, tall gunch, bushes, christmas trees, etc.

Yet when a course like PV has scenarios like that....and it occurs often enough that the fore-caddies have even developed a protocol for turning these in to playable lies...next to no one bats an eye?

I understand GCA.com has its favorites, but i'm astounded at the pass this gets in the name of "championship golf".

By this alone, PV can't be the perennial #1.

[DMoriarty]

Haven't played it but I am sure I'd be a fan.

Speaking of fans, the other thread got me thinking.   What about wind?  I guess I am of the opinion that wind is a necessary component on truly great golf courses.   Does Pine Valley have comparable exposure to the wind as many of the other truly great golf links?  

[Andy Hughes]

I don't know of a golfer that DOESN'T know about Pine Valley.

How could Nixon have won? Nobody I know voted for him? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Moriarty,

The course certainly gets its share of breezes, but, it's not the same winds that Bandon, Sand Hills, Maidstone, Southampton, Seminole and other courses get.

Dale and Kalen,

I know this sounds trite, but, you just don't get it and won't get it until you experience PV.

This isn't a club policy, it's what the caddies seem to do to get people around the golf course, people who probably don't belong playing there in the first place.  Unfortunately, there's only one sign informing the less than stout golfer to steer clear and that's at Bethpage.

[DMoriarty]

David Moriarty,

The course certainly gets its share of breezes, but, it's not the same winds that Bandon, Sand Hills, Maidstone, Southampton, Seminole and other courses get.

So then if it does not get similarly ideal winds, can it truly be considered the best of the best?  Can any course be considered the best of the best without ideal winds? 

I am not expressing a view one way or another on PV, because as I said I haven't played it, and I certainly haven't played all the courses in the world about which one might also make the claim of "best."   But I am curious as to why ideal wind conditions are not more fully considered or heavily weighed in these conversations.   

If a course had pretty good but not great greens, or pretty good but not great terrain, then I doubt it would get much consideration as potentially the best in the world.  Should it be really be different when it comes to wind conditions?  Can  a course that only gets "its share of breezes" really be considered better than courses where the wind conditions are ideally suited for interesting and compelling golf? 

[JESII]

To take the counter position, if a courses architecture is dependent upon the wind can it really be considered the greatest?

[Matt MacIver]

I have a new scale, great Championship courses and great EveryMan courses, on the Doak scale.  Weighted factor: 1.5:1 in favor of Championship courses (who knows why certainly one could argue the other way...).  (All completely on the fly and BS...).  So:

PV: Championship = 10; EveryMan = 8.  Total: 11.5

TOC: Championship =10; EveryMan = 10.  Total: 12.5

I believe the Best Course in the world should be playable (and enjoyable, and possibly, even accessable) by EveryMan.  Note I haven't played PV. 

[Ulrich Mayring]

Caddies breaking the rules of golf to favor their player - who'd have thought that

But it's interesting to hear that, of all courses, Pine Valley is apparently loaded with 25 handicappers making life miserable for everyone else. I'd have thought by writing that type of check, I'd at least get a largely empty course and play at my leisure

Ulrich

[Kalen Braley]

Even moreso..

Who would ever have thought that a massive tree/bush removal could possibly improve:

- Pace of Play
- Turf quaility
- Improved air movement
- Better sight lines/chance for recovery

 

[DMoriarty]

To take the counter position, if a courses architecture is dependent upon the wind can it really be considered the greatest?

Blasphemy.   Wind is an integral part of the game.  Nae wind nae gowf.

Are you so dismissive of the other natural elements?  Should we eliminate from consideration courses where the architecture is dependent upon perfect soil, bouncy turf, and hearty fine fescues perfect for golf? How about courses with impeccable natural drainage, perfectly rolling terrain, and excellent natural greensites? Or how about we eliminate courses with beautiful and inspiring setting, wonderful and easily adaptable natural hazards and features?

I trust you agree that we cannot throw this stuff out, because these are many of the the very components making our great courses great.  Why is wind different?

Here is some of what CBM wrote about wind in Scotland's Gift:
Wind I consider to be the finest asset in golf; in itself it is one of the greatest and most delightful accompaniments of the game.  Without wind your course is always the same, but as the wind varies in velocity and from the various points on the compass, you not only have one course but you have many courses. Experts at the game temper their shots to the wind and learn how to make the most of it. It is there that the true golfer excels.  Low says: "A good player always prays for a windy day, but he must not pray too earnestly."

Sounds about right to me.  

  

[Scott Warren]

I think everyone is overreacting a bit and taking Pat's experiences as gospel.

I can guarantee our balls weren't touched by the caddies.

This is sort of what I was getting at about courses that many people haven't played. If someone makes a comment about Bandon, for example, we have a huge wealth of experience on this website to sort the fact and truth from the rumour and one-off occurrence.

At the courses few of us have played, something happens to a couple of folks and so it is assumed that it happens to everyone, or there were fans there last week so it's assumed there must always be fans there (there aren't)...

Does that make sense? I guess it's a pity we can't have the level of experience everywhere that we have at Bandon, Barnbougle etc because that breadth of experience would be invaluable.

[Jim Nugent]

I would not argue that Pine Valley has the best collection of holes.  But for me, St. Andrews is still #1.  I had the great experience of caddying for people who couldn't even have finished the first four hole loop at Pine Valley, and guiding them around the course in a way that they really enjoyed it.  You couldn't say that about many other courses that are also fascinating for the pros -- maybe Royal Melbourne.

How much does TOC fascinate the pros, when the wind doesn't blow?  Seems like not very much.  They rip the course to shreds. 

So my question is, can a course be great for pros if it depends on wind -- especially if it gets calm conditions fairly often? 

[Sean_A]

To take the counter position, if a courses architecture is dependent upon the wind can it really be considered the greatest?

To take the other other position, if the architecture of a windy course isn't dependent on the wind can it really be considered the greatest?  

In my experience its actually fairly rare for a windy course to really allow for serious wind.  

Jim - I think in this instance you have to ask pros your question.  

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Caddies breaking the rules of golf to favor their player - who'd have thought that

But it's interesting to hear that, of all courses, Pine Valley is apparently loaded with 25 handicappers making life miserable for everyone else.

Mostly guests clamoring to play.

I'd have thought by writing that type of check,

What type of check are you refering to ?

I'd at least get a largely empty course and play at my leisure

Then you thought wrong.... again.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Moriarty,

Seminole is brilliant because of how Ross routed the course and designed each hole.

It's a windy site and the direction and velocity of the wind changes the way each hole plays, yet, the overall tactical balance is preserved irrespective of the direction of the wind.

Wind is a great asset, but a lousy golf course on a windy site is still a lousy golf course.

Pine Valley is an incredible course that gets it's share of the wind, it's just not the same wind found at oceanside courses.

Scott Warren,

Like the resentful/jealous women trying to find a flaw in that gorgeous woman in South Beach, some try to find flaws with courses they've never layed eyes on.

When I was playing Southampton with Gene Greco another local resident followed us around.
He lurks on GCA.com and commented that an incredible number of ignorant posts were made about courses by people who had never seen the course they were commenting on.

So you have to discount and/or dismiss idiotic comments from those unfamilar with a course.

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