[Patrick_Mucci]

Each and every hole is unique.

The only similarity in any of the holes is that the 1st and 6th are dogleg right par 4's, but, that's where the similarity ends.

The use of the terrain is spectacular.
And, they moved a good amount of dirt at PV at the green and tee ends, and on some fairways.
That combination provides for one of the most unique challenges in all of golf.

But, it's really the individuallity of each hole, when connected vis a vis a comfortable routing that provides an incredible 18 hole challenge.

I don't know of another course where the holes are so different, so unique.

The topography is THE main contributor to that uniqueness, or rather the use of the topography is the main contributor to the uniqueness.

Is there any other course that provides such unique diversity in all 18 holes ?

[JC Jones]

I can think of several courses where each hole is unique.  Perhaps the isolation of the holes from one another at Pine Valley accentuates this feeling?

Are the playing corridors there as narrow as they seem?  Should it be opened up like Oakmont?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I can think of several courses where each hole is unique. 

Would you list them.

Perhaps the isolation of the holes from one another at Pine Valley accentuates this feeling?


There's probably less isolation today than there has been in the last 50 years.

The isolation has nothing to do with the individuality of the design of each hole.
What many ignore or don't see is that you rarely get flat lies at PV.
The terrain "rolls, cants or pitches" on almost every hole, and that's in addition to the movement of the land upon which the hole sits.
# 4 would be a good example. 
There's both Macro and Micro movement in that fairway.
That dual combination exists on many of the holes, adding to their uniqueness.

Are the playing corridors there as narrow as they seem? 

On what holes do they seem narrow ?

Some of those fairways appear to be 60-80 yards wide.

Should it be opened up like Oakmont?

I don't think that would be good for Pine Valley.
Pine Valley isn't Oakmont, it's very unique with some very sharp elevation changes
I'd certainly advocate more tree clearing.

Example, behind # 13 green there's a narrow trench bunker.
But, if you are unfortunate enough to land in it, there are tree branches from nearby trees that would restrict your swing, making extrication next to impossible.

Some holes could have the playing corridors widened.
You can see bunkers in the woods on holes like # 12 and even # 7.
But, generally, Pine Valley is fairly wide.

# 15 narrows as you get closer to the green, but, other than that I can't think of any narrow hole.

[paul cowley]

.

[Andy Troeger]

I've only had one chance to play the course, but I agree Patrick. The variety, individuality, and uniqueness of each hole is tremendous. The best holes are as good as the best anywhere, minus the scenery of Pebble and Cypress. The worst holes at Pine Valley run away from the worst holes anywhere else. The 12th hole might have been my least favorite on the course, and its still probably a 7. Every other hole is 8+.

The fairways are very generous, even though I didn't find all of them. The golfer has plenty of room to play, but the penalty for misses is severe. I think first-timers are probably overwhelmed which makes a hard course even more difficult.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

I've often thought that the golfer's opinion of # 12 is almost solely dependent upon the hole location on the day of play.
Where was the hole cut when you played it ?

It's a wonderful short par 4.

I'd just like to see more trees removed such that the flagstick would be visible.

There's some fronting mounds that hide the green from the left side of the fairway (tee)

[JC Jones]

Pat,

The course that comes to mind where each hole presents a unique challenge from each of the other holes is Kingsley Club.  Build in all of the uneven lies, canted fairways, etc. that you were talking about at Pine Valley and +1 for Kingsley Club.

Have you played it?

[Andy Troeger]

Pat,
I believe the pin would have been considered "center." Its a darn good hole in its own right--its tough to find a "worst" hole at Pine Valley. There's no comparison IMO between #12 at PV and my least favorites at CPC (#18) and Pebble (#15).

I remember my host asking for a favorite hole after the round--I don't remember which one I picked, but #2, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 18 all still really stand out, and I'm leaving out standouts like 1, 4, 16...etc. The place is incredible.

JC,
Kingsley is a good example. I think Pine Valley raises the bar another notch, but Kingsley is excellent and the variety might be the biggest reason why.

[Peter Pallotta]

For PV to perennially take top spot would require greatness to be a fixed and knowable and narrowly defined quality. I guess it could be so defined (if we want to get all "wide road but narrow gate" about it) -- but intuitively that strikes me as self-contradictory.

(A theoretical take, of course, a meta post.)

Peter 

[JC Jones]

Peter Pallotta,

Northern Michigan is calling your name on Wednesday, July 20.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC Jones,

I've never played Kingsley

Peter,

No, greatness doesn't have to be fixed.
PV just has to be better than any other golf course and I  think the unique characteristics of each of the 18 individual holes creates a special quality not found anywhere else, which in turn elevates the course above all others.

[Sean Leary]

Its by a good bit the best I have played and Shinnecock is the only one I have seen that could give it a run for its money. Even with changes to greens like #2 and out of place back tees on 3 and 14 wouldn't affect its ranking in my book.

[Scott Warren]

Before I went to PV, I asked a friend in Surrey just how good it was and what was it like.

His reply: "Imagine your favourite hole on the heathlands. Now imagine a hole twice as good as that. Now imagine 18 holes that good and that's Pine Valley."

It's an exaggeration, sure, but it's not a bad way of putting it (incidentally, my member friend said the course that most reminds him of PV is the Old at Sunningdale, though he agreed there was some resemblance also in parts of The Addington).

The holes are all THAT good and the shots they ask for are THAT different from hole to hole.

Not only are all the holes significantly different from each other, I can't really think of a shot on the course that isn't completely different in some way to any other on the course.

Pat, as you say - 1 and 6 are as close as the course gets to repetitive, and yet the two holes are entirely different propositions asking for completely different shots - particularly into and around their in-no-way-alike greens.

The real magic, IMO, is in how the 18 entirely different holes flow so seemlessly and feature a shared character that identifies them as being of the same course.

In creating a course with so much variety I imagine it would be easy to end up with holes that don't share the same common DNA of Pine Valley.

Until they build a course that's better, I guess it should remain #1.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Having a perennial #1 is pretty boring from the standpoint of magazine editors, but if we accept the convention that there has to BE a #1, then we must also accept that it really shouldn't change from one year to the next -- unless they did something stupid like change one of their best greens, say. 

I would not argue that Pine Valley has the best collection of holes.  But for me, St. Andrews is still #1.  I had the great experience of caddying for people who couldn't even have finished the first four hole loop at Pine Valley, and guiding them around the course in a way that they really enjoyed it.  You couldn't say that about many other courses that are also fascinating for the pros -- maybe Royal Melbourne.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I understand what you're saying, but I think you have to consider that PV was created to be a championship course.

TOC is great, but the topography and distinct uniqueness of every hole at PV is exceptional.

From the tee and DZ not one hole bears the slightest resemblance to any other hole.

Can you say that about TOC ?

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Patrick, Pine Valley a championship course? Do you write promo material for the RTJ GOLF trail?  But seriously, what "championships" have they held, beyond the Crump Cup? Not taking away from the course, just curious. And it might not be perenially #1 as a matter of course, but it aught to be mighty high, like top 2 or 3.

[Tim_Cronin]

Something to remember about the rankings: Often, it isn't the course that changes nearly as much as the group of people making the rankings. In a close ranking, the change of just a few people (and their different views) can cause wholesale changes. That's why the top 100 whatever isn't anything to get all that excited about, especially as you get past maybe 50. Twenty new panelists replacing 20 others could move a course or two several places, never mind that it and the courses ranked around it really didn't change. (I see it in college football voting, which has the same cast every week, but a different set of results. Change one of two votes and sometimes you can get a different No. 1 team.)

Raters and those in charge of them could probably explain the dynamics.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

I understand what you're saying, but I think you have to consider that PV was created to be a championship course.

TOC is great, but the topography and distinct uniqueness of every hole at PV is exceptional.

From the tee and DZ not one hole bears the slightest resemblance to any other hole.

Can you say that about TOC ?

Patrick:

No, you can't say that about The Old Course.

But, it's much easier to make holes look different than other courses when you abdicate from the responsibility to cater to golfers who can't comfortably hit it 200 yards off the tee.  Pine Valley looks so different precisely because it's one of the only courses in the world which gave up on that.

It is certainly built on a great piece of property ... one of the best there is in golf.

[Jerry Kluger]

Patrick - I am disappointed.  You of all people concerned about rankings.  PV is genius and great, pure and simple. But perhaps so is Shinnecock or Cypress Point or ANGC - who cares what order you put them in.  That is perhaps the reason why rankings sometimes make no sense - is there really a difference between them and how can they really change from  year to year?  The answer is they don't. When somebody can actually demonstrate a factual and non-subjective manner in which to differentiate among the greatest courses ever built then it will matter if PV is #1.

[Kevin Pallier]

Patrick

The simple answer is one could say - until someone builds a better course - yes.

Is there any other course that provides such unique diversity in all 18 holes ?

Cypress Point, Royal Melbourne (Composite), NGLA, Royal County Down etc I could say have as much unique diversity spread throughout their layouts as well ?

The thing for me is that you struggle to find a lesser hole at PV - one in which you could say detracts from the continuity of the experience. Each hole is stellar in it's own right and the combination meld of them into the design is superior to every course I've seen with CPC a shade behind it for mine.

[Jim Franklin]

I have a friend that is a member at PV and ANGC. He is SHOCKED that ANGC is rated ahead of PV in the GD ratings.

[Chris Johnston]

It certainly is hard to argue against Pine Valley being the perennial #1.  Terrific course, terrific club, terrific experience!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, Pine Valley a championship course? Do you write promo material for the RTJ GOLF trail?  But seriously, what "championships" have they held, beyond the Crump Cup? Not taking away from the course, just curious. And it might not be perenially #1 as a matter of course, but it aught to be mighty high, like top 2 or 3.

Jamie,

Prior to typing, you should have researched the intent behind the creation of Pine Valley.

It was crafted for the championship golfer, not the broad spectrum of golfers that every other course was crafted for.

If, in your judgement, PV is # 2 or 3, what course are you placing before it ?

[Jed Peters]

Patrick:

Can you reach the fairways from the tee boxes anymore? There are some 200 yard carries out there you know....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin,

I think your last paragraph hits the nail on the head.

There simply isn't a mediocre hole on the entire golf course, they're all exceptional.

Absent anything close to a weak link, how can it not be perennially # 1

Jerry Kluger,

I don't care about rankings, as I have my own method for categorizing golf courses, my underlying theme is  the fact that every hole is unique and of high quality, without the slightest hint of mediocrity, and as such, superior to all others.

Now i know the Merionettes will be apoplectic about my categorization of the 13th hole as a hybrid Redan, but, the lack of anything but a high quality hole is amazing, and I can't think of another course where that quality exists.

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