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Sean_A

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2018, 05:00:07 AM »
ATB

I am one to think that all courses could benefit from some bunkering even if very light.  The trick at a place like Minch Old is to keep a good balance.  At Cleeve Cloud bunkers could help separate the many blind tee shots...instead bunkers are greenside and don't do much help the design.  At Painswick bunkers could be used to save balls from death on the more severe holes to counterbalance the terrain.  At Minch Old I can imagine good bunkers going in

1. 1 between the turf wall and the green
12. for the drive
14. Something to visually help the hole
15. See 14.

However, when I see only four holes which could really use some help and I imagine help could also be provided using other features, I am left wondering if ALL courses really could be helped by sand without risking a muck up.   

Are folks easier on evaluating places like Minch Old because of no bunkers, earthworks and maintenance au naturel? I love the course, but it wouldn't make my 100 best GB&I.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 03:54:02 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, Malone, Cruit Island & St Pats

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2018, 12:19:21 PM »

Are folks easier on evaluating places like Minch Old because of no bunkers, earthworks and maintenance au naturel? I love the course, but it wouldn't make my 100 best GB&I.



Oh, no question about it, we tend to be charmed by a little place like Minch Old and look for strengths of the course, instead of looking for weaknesses.


It's human nature.  When somebody opens a brand new course with aspirations of greatness we start looking for flaws, because they're asking for it with their marketing and naked ambition.  Cows and sheep are easier to forgive.


There is no question you could make Minch Old "better" if you added some bunkers or redesigned a few greens or the like.  But it's not the place for that.  Its appeal is that it calls into question whether anyone really needs "better" or whether we are all trying much too hard.

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2018, 12:46:26 PM »
I wouldn't add sand bunkers to Minch' Old not only because I think they'd be quite simply inappropriate - I wouldn't add them to Painswick either and I don't think much of the ones that Cleeve Cloud already has - but because it's an upland Common rather than a native sandy area and also because the folks who walk and play on the Common and the animals that graze it and are exercised by their owners on it would trash them which would not only be a hassle to playing golfers but also to those who maintain the course/Common.
For example, a cow or horses misplaced hoof can do considerable damage to a bunkers face which will cost time and money to repair and animal shit in bunkers (ie hazards) isn't the most edifying material to interact with when your ball or stance are effecting it and there's no free drop available.
The only things I'd change about Minch' Old is to have fences around every green plus some form of decent greens irrigation, both of which I believe are not acceptable to those who oversee the Common.
atb

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2018, 12:55:08 PM »
Ah, what we 'want' vs what we 'need' -- the ubiquitous choice/struggle of the modern, western world so historically unparalleled in riches. A saint who was assigned onerous administrative & public duties when he was naturally suited for and much preferred the anonymous contemplative life was asked about it - and he answered 'Oh, yes, I'd like to be at a secluded forest retreat - but of course I don't want what I would like'. For the rest of us, I suppose we all have our duties and destinies -- yours, Tom, appears to be to try hard to do "better", so keep doing what you're doing. There are others whose (equally honourable) task is to create the 'good enoughs', to meet our needs instead of our wants, so it all works out just fine. The best of all possible worlds.
P
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 02:15:01 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2018, 04:39:32 PM »
Ah, what we 'want' vs what we 'need' -- the ubiquitous choice/struggle of the modern, western world so historically unparalleled in riches. A saint who was assigned onerous administrative & public duties when he was naturally suited for and much preferred the anonymous contemplative life was asked about it - and he answered 'Oh, yes, I'd like to be at a secluded forest retreat - but of course I don't want what I would like'. For the rest of us, I suppose we all have our duties and destinies -- yours, Tom, appears to be to try hard to do "better", so keep doing what you're doing. There are others whose (equally honourable) task is to create the 'good enoughs', to meet our needs instead of our wants, so it all works out just fine. The best of all possible worlds.
P


Oh, Peter, I disagree.


I've long since come around to the idea that golf needs more of the "good enough" projects and fewer of the "better", and I've been trying to direct people's attention in that direction.  Indeed that's what my books are all about.  And anytime we get a chance to build something alternative and smaller and less "better" I jump on it.  But I've never had the opportunity to lay out something on a Common.


But when a lot of your clients are billionaires [or, trying to compete with the billionaires] and they are asking for "better" and "top 50", you are just not going to sell them on a course grazed by animals and there is little point in trying. 


P.S.  Mike Keiser [who is not a billionaire, or at least wasn't then] actually tried some sheep at The Sheep Ranch, but it did not even last until the course was opened.

Sean_A

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2018, 06:19:17 PM »

Are folks easier on evaluating places like Minch Old because of no bunkers, earthworks and maintenance au naturel? I love the course, but it wouldn't make my 100 best GB&I.


Oh, no question about it, we tend to be charmed by a little place like Minch Old and look for strengths of the course, instead of looking for weaknesses.

It's human nature.  When somebody opens a brand new course with aspirations of greatness we start looking for flaws, because they're asking for it with their marketing and naked ambition.  Cows and sheep are easier to forgive.

There is no question you could make Minch Old "better" if you added some bunkers or redesigned a few greens or the like.  But it's not the place for that.  Its appeal is that it calls into question whether anyone really needs "better" or whether we are all trying much too hard.

Tom

The appeal of Minch Old for me is the beauty of the site and shared land, a concept which I find one of the coolest I have seen in golf.  So, making it better doesn't seem like a chore to me even though I know it ain't gonna happen...Minch Old is what it is.  Yet to me the course is out of balance, probably because there isn't much elevation change to overlook the repeated use of earthworks and flatish greens.  If I lived nearby it may be good enough to join if the price is right, but I bet membership is expensive relative to a cost of a round.   

ATB

I reluctantly agree re Minch Old and Painswick, but certainly not Cleeve Cloud. The course has bunkers, but its a bad bunker scheme.  A better scheme would greatly enhance the course.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 03:19:21 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, Malone, Cruit Island & St Pats

Ira Fishman

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2018, 06:21:41 PM »
Peter,


Back to your one word, two word recent thread about the best of all possible worlds.  I said "no" because of "money". And what I had in mind is largely what Tom's post articulates.  We have a bifurcated world: wonderful developments that are very expensive to play and unfortunately not a lot on the other end of the spectrum or even in between.


Ira

Sean_A

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2018, 06:35:28 PM »
Ira

I can't presume to know anyone's financial situation and I do understand your point about the current trend of building expensive resorts in far flung places which are not environmentally friendly in terms of the travel carbon footprint.  I do, however, find if one is willing to dig there are plenty of affordable courses which are both good and provide lasting interest.  Sure, one must lower expectations in terms of design and maintenance, but that is the case for any product...no? 

The really interesting thing I have discovered this summer is the best courses have suffered just like the wannabees have.  It would seem even relatively rich clubs don't want to spend their way through a drought and ask their members to put up with much less than ideal green conditions even though fairways are excellent and required less attention than normal.  I have played only one course this summer which has kept its greens in decent nick through the drought and it had a horrible fire!

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 07:15:10 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, Malone, Cruit Island & St Pats

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2018, 06:38:19 PM »
Ira - yes, I understand and in my heart I agree; but as Tom's (very interesting) post suggests: the billionaires always want the best, and, since the world will always have billionaires (and since 'the poor will always be with us'), it sure feels like bifurcation is an inevitability in this best of all possible worlds. Now, that's not to say that I don't want or dream about the impossible...just that I'm expecting to have to wait quite a while longer for it...

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2018, 07:08:29 PM »

Are folks easier on evaluating places like Minch Old because of no bunkers, earthworks and maintenance au naturel? I love the course, but it wouldn't make my 100 best GB&I.


Oh, no question about it, we tend to be charmed by a little place like Minch Old and look for strengths of the course, instead of looking for weaknesses.

It's human nature.  When somebody opens a brand new course with aspirations of greatness we start looking for flaws, because they're asking for it with their marketing and naked ambition.  Cows and sheep are easier to forgive.

There is no question you could make Minch Old "better" if you added some bunkers or redesigned a few greens or the like.  But it's not the place for that.  Its appeal is that it calls into question whether anyone really needs "better" or whether we are all trying much too hard.

Tom

The appeal of Minch Old for me is beauty of the site and shared land, a concept which I find one of the coolest I have seen in golf.  So, making it better doesn't seem like a chore to me even though I know it ain't gonna happen...Minch Old is what it is.  Yet to me the course is out of balance, probably because there isn't much elevation change to overlook the repeated use of earthworks and flatish greens.  If I lived nearby it may be good enough to join if the price is right, but I bet membership is expensive relative to a cost of a round.   

ATB

I reluctantly agree re Minch Old and Painswick, but certainly not Cleeve Cloud. The course has bunkers, but its a bad bunker scheme.  A better scheme would greatly enhance the course.

Ciao
It is interesting that Painswick & Cleeve Cloud have made the English top 100 courses in a recent magazine. I like both of these and I like Minch old but........very few Gloucestershire golfers like them enough to join them, those that do often do it because the price is very cheap, we just played a seniors match against CC, a few of our team absolutely hated it, they disliked the sharing with sheep, they hated the slopes and ball movement, they hated the unirrigated greens, they hated the blindness. I managed to convince a few of some merits of CC but overall the main dislike was the quality of the green surfaces, in the discussion we had it was hard to find over riders for this. A few did like the overall architecture of CC, Painswick and Minch old (also known as Amberley). Painswick can't raise a seniors team which is kind of a worrying sign, I am not sure we could raise a team either for the away fixture, whilst a few love it many many more loathe it, even the ones that love it still cite the green surface quality as the reason they would not join or want to play more. I know hundreds maybe its more than a thousand golfers that live within 30 minutes of Painswick that have never played it, yet if I posted a pic on my facebook of a hole at Painswick it would get loads of likes and people would ask where it is, when I try an get people to play it one of the fourball will talk the others out of it. Booking groups there is the same problem they think about it and listen to the condition problems, lack of length, lack of buggies. Those that I have convinced to give it go range from love it to hate it, but people golf in packs of 4 or more and its hard to get them to return as 4 that loved it. Minch Old has the most fans as it plays pretty normal and at times is in good nick. In a wet summer with the rough up and cattle out, it is about as horrible as a round of golf can get. In April they have a pro-am and the pros give it a big tick. Hard to know who is right and who is wrong Minchinhampton GC has 54 holes and have 1500 members but nearly all would have the 'Old' third best.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2018, 07:45:23 PM »
Adrian - thanks very much for such an in depth, detailed and interesting post. I have to admit: while the variety of fields of play make me a little weepy and sentimental, 'Timeless Minchinhampton' looks to be much *too* Timeless for my tastes. Call me boring and bourgeois, but I think I'll take Reigate Heath instead....
Thanks again
P

« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 07:47:06 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Ira Fishman

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2018, 08:06:44 PM »
Ira - yes, I understand and in my heart I agree; but as Tom's (very interesting) post suggests: the billionaires always want the best, and, since the world will always have billionaires (and since 'the poor will always be with us'), it sure feels like bifurcation is an inevitability in this best of all possible worlds. Now, that's not to say that I don't want or dream about the impossible...just that I'm expecting to have to wait quite a while longer for it...


Peter,


I am loathe to introduce political economy into this terrific thread (although I do Chair the Board of the Washington Center for Equitable Growth which has deep insights on the topic of inequality) so I will limit my point to the fact that there was a time not all that long ago that plenty of “good enough” public courses were being built in the US. That no longer is the case and many of the existing ones struggle.


Ira

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2018, 08:35:17 PM »
Adrian - thanks very much for such an in depth, detailed and interesting post. I have to admit: while the variety of fields of play make me a little weepy and sentimental, 'Timeless Minchinhampton' looks to be much *too* Timeless for my tastes. Call me boring and bourgeois, but I think I'll take Reigate Heath instead....
Thanks again
P


I think you underestimate the course.  There are several holes and features that would make anyone who appreciates architecture giddy with delight.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2018, 01:12:18 AM »
Minchinhampton GC has 54 holes and have 1500 members but nearly all would have the 'Old' third best.


I've not yet been there but I  did play with a member of Minchinhampton in an open at Tenby in June. He was effusive about the place but on questioning it was clear that the Old course seldom featured in his golfing schedule!


Edited to add;


On perusing the club website I see that "Full Membership" does not even include playing rights on the Old course - merely concessionary green fees.


http://minchinhamptongolfclub.co.uk/join-us/membership-categories-and-fees/





One gets the distinct impression that the rather dull looking new courses outside town are where the action is...

« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 01:33:29 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2018, 03:25:31 AM »
Minch' Old, Painswick and Cleeve are different to the norm, they are marmite courses, some love them, some hate them and Adrian sums this up nicely in his post above.
As to the other 2 modern courses near Minchinhampton, I'm not a fan of the Avening but like the Cherrington.
There is actually an all 3-course Minchinhampton membership deal but it's rather confusingly called a "3-course Joint Membership" which kind of suggests more a meal for a couple than individual membership at a golf club! The difference between a full 2-course and a full 3-course membership is just over £200, which doesn't seem excessive to spread some marmite to your usual toast, if you like marmite that is!
The Cherrington incidentally held regional qualifying for The Open last month and the participants murdered it, crazy low scoring.


atb


PS - I wonder if Saunton and Westward Ho!/RND were only a couple of miles apart on land instead of across the wide estuary and were 1 club what percentage of play would be on the S-East, S-West and WH/RND? Again the marmite question. Curiously enough I myself can't stand marmite but am rather fond of the course at WH/RND and at Minch' Old as well.


Later edit - a couple of my photos of Minch' Old.
From the 10th tee in May/Springtime -

From the Clubhouse balcony of the 18th green and fairway in late Summer -


« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 12:41:20 PM by Thomas Dai »

Sean_A

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2018, 03:30:02 AM »
Adrian - thanks very much for such an in depth, detailed and interesting post. I have to admit: while the variety of fields of play make me a little weepy and sentimental, 'Timeless Minchinhampton' looks to be much *too* Timeless for my tastes. Call me boring and bourgeois, but I think I'll take Reigate Heath instead....
Thanks again
P

I think you underestimate the course.  There are several holes and features that would make anyone who appreciates architecture giddy with delight.

+1 

Because I don't think Minch Old is top 100 doesn't mean it ain't good and obviously so with anyone who cares to pay attention.  I suspect RAF was built with Minch Old very much in mind and if one likes RAF Minch Old should be enjoyed as well.  As an aside, it is interesting to see how different the two courses became over time.  RAF retained much of its man-made penal nature while Minch Old lost some of it.  Perhaps more importantly, RAF developed fairway/rough boundaries while Minch Old has managed to retain their old world blurred lines. I don't see any discernable difference in quality between the two courses, just a difference in membership and thus reputation.  So, RAF is perennial top 100 and Minch Old never gets a mention....

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, Malone, Cruit Island & St Pats

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2018, 04:21:41 AM »
On Common land courses the stance of the body that supervises the Common and the relationship of the club with the supervising body is pretty much the key to what any golf club/course that plays over the Common is able to do and at Minchinhampton the overseeing body is the National Trust.
As a generalisation some of the supervising bodies, and it’s not always the NT, in Scotland there are Links Trust for example, have powers that are even embodied in long ago statutied Acts of Parliament...although it’s probably doubtful that this governs such details as pin positions (!!) but modifications to earthworks can be included. And then there are other factors like SSSI’s etc etc.
Not so simple unfortunately as digging a pit and filling it with sand or installing electric fences around 18 small areas or ploughing a trench to provide greenside irrigation.

This is the clubs summary of its relationship with the Common - http://old.minchinhamptongolfclub.co.uk/club/ecology/

Atb
Later photo edit.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 08:14:38 AM by Thomas Dai »

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2018, 01:51:24 PM »
Took the dog up for a walk to Minch and also Painswick today.


The greens on both courses are really bad, both displaying huge bald patches from the 'no irrigation' of the hot summer.


Largely both courses still looked beautiful aside from greens.


Did not see one person at all playing at Painswick I thought I had remembered a no play on Sunday policy but apparently there were three green fee payers, just saw 1 4ball at Minch. On day like today basking in beautiful sunshine it must be getting close to times up for these courses. Cleeve Cloud has joined the Playmoregolf scheme (something I loathe) so for £325 per year you can play up to 50 times displaying golf at £6.50 a round, Dave Finch (a mate of 40 years) and the pro there said they were down to 200 members, I begged him not to join PMG but he said they were pretty desperate. I have not seen CC greens but I would imagine these clubs will lose a good few of their members with the current state of the greens.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2018, 02:40:27 PM »
Adrian:


It's an interesting paradox, but the older something is [if it's not a living organism], the more likely it is to survive.

Ryan Coles

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2018, 03:13:18 PM »
Adrian


It doesn’t help that the Governing Body, England Golf is promoting Play More Golf to the gullible Clubs. Some think if England Golf are on board, it must be good. Never mind that EnglandGolf are on side because it ticks their box of getting an affiliation fee from nomadic golfers, and to hell with more money leaving the Clubs.


I’m bored of all the reports of ‘new members gained’. They should survey on membership revenue, calculate out the annual increase and it will show the true picture.




Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2018, 04:46:34 AM »
Adrian


It doesn’t help that the Governing Body, England Golf is promoting Play More Golf to the gullible Clubs. Some think if England Golf are on board, it must be good. Never mind that EnglandGolf are on side because it ticks their box of getting an affiliation fee from nomadic golfers, and to hell with more money leaving the Clubs.


I’m bored of all the reports of ‘new members gained’. They should survey on membership revenue, calculate out the annual increase and it will show the true picture.
+1. Our club has decided not to play any friendly matches against clubs that have joined the PMG scheme but it is hard when England Golf have gifted their logo to them. I could see Painswick joining up!
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2018, 04:52:54 AM »
Adrian:


It's an interesting paradox, but the older something is [if it's not a living organism], the more likely it is to survive.
Minch will survive on the back of its other two courses that bring in the honey. Painswick & CC  I am not so sure if very few people are playing it on a brilliant autumn day then what is the point.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2018, 01:35:13 PM »
I am not overly concerned about the survival of Minch Old.  Somehow, I think things will work out.  And if not, then folks have voted with their wallets and deserve what they get...which will most likely be less interesting golf for far more money. You can lead a donkey to water...

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 06:13:55 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, Malone, Cruit Island & St Pats

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2018, 03:10:46 PM »
I’m maybe somewhat biased but I reckon that if golf generally were to go belly-up its places like Minch’ Old that would most likely survive.
Rustic courses with no particular frills or airs and graces which if pull came to shove could be maintained by a combination of one or maybe two staff with members helping out as well. Kind of like the origins of many yee olde period or rural clubs. And the golf would still be fun, which as a leisure pursuit is surely the point of the games existence.
Atb


Edit - some colourised photos later added.


Photo 2 is the old quarry hole which was replaced by the current par-3 10th. The original green is now used as a carpark.
Photos 3 and 4 are what was once the 2nd green on the current routing. This green is now the location of a water trough for the grazing cattle.






« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 11:49:35 AM by Thomas Dai »

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Timeless MINCHINHAMPTON OLD COURSE
« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2018, 03:42:25 PM »
I’m maybe somewhat biased but I reckon that if golf generally were to go belly-up its places like Minch’ Old that would most likely survive.
Rustic courses with no particular frills or airs and graces which if pull came to shove could be maintained by a combination of one or maybe two staff with members helping out as well. Kind of like the origins of many yee olde period or rural clubs. And the golf would still be fun, which as a leisure pursuit is surely the point of the games existance.
Atb
Minch old will be ok on the back of Minch new. Painswick has flown close to sun a few times, if it has a few that will keep it going without pay it might keep going but on a day like Sunday (both our courses had near full times) it can't be a good sign that both these courses were near empty. Perhaps the walkers and golf just dont mix on Sunday and whilst not technically closed it might just be no fun golfing. I don't know the economics of Painswick or Cleeve Cloud but cheap green fees do not bring in much money. Apart from the condition of the greens both looked great.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

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