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Gary Slatter

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #75 on: May 30, 2011, 03:33:00 PM »
A mostly good renovation and a superb tournament!
Is that the first time World #1 and World #2 have ever played off?

Quite different from the course that I played 30 YEARS AGO but a perfect challenge for the modern tour player.
Nice to see a course where the putter is not the most important club.
Who does Ernie's design and construction work?
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2011, 03:39:27 PM »
The announcers referred to the Burma Road.Is that a nickname for the course or the club and why?Is that the club's address?

Alister Matheson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #77 on: May 31, 2011, 01:15:53 AM »
Tony - Opinion seems very mixed. It has some supporters with the changes and a -6 score for 72 holes seems the result 'they' wanted. I liked Wentworth because of the 5 5 finish, someone could pick up 4 shots, it was good for TV, you could even bugger the last couple up, that seems to be taken away now because if your in contention they lay up at 18 even after last years revision.... to fix it perhaps the hole needs playing 25 yards shorter. Whatever the water still does not look right to my eye.

I don't like 8 or 12 if I am honest, the rest is probably better than before. So 15 out 18 are probably better. I dont think it was a brilliant golf course before, Sunningdale is a league ahead IMO but modern tournament golf seems to want courses where long holes rule over the ones this site cares for.

Peter Alliss made a comment that you used to be able to run it in at 9 holes before the change...now its all aerial.
I have heard its much more difficult now to play and for a mid handicapper its very hard bordering unenjoyable, but a lot of new courses are like that and basically Wentworth is a new course.
Adrian- I listened to Peter Aliss say that aswell but to be brutally honest on the holes you could run it in i never seen a pro or handicap golfer use this option the greens at Wentworth used to be pure poa and the heavy soil profile like a sponge so you could fire in a 3 wood and land and stop it on a sixpence .To state this change in design is one thing but when the grond conditions never promoted running the ball in has wentworth really lost any thing in your opinion ? A LARGE PART OF THE INCREASED DIFFICULTY IS THAT THE GREENS ARE NOW VERY FIRM SO THE PLAYERS CANT JUST GET THE YARDAGE FROM THERE CADDY AND FIRE IT AT THE PIN. While the increased elevation on the greens takes away several run up options imo the design would have been heavily geared towards creating free draining greens ,so taking away a few run up options when they were rarely used was a small price to pay to get consistantly firm greens.

Cheers Ally
Cruden Bay Links Maintenance Blog

http://crudenbaylinks.blogspot.com/

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #78 on: May 31, 2011, 02:12:25 AM »
The announcers referred to the Burma Road.Is that a nickname for the course or the club and why?Is that the club's address?

It's a nickname the course was given after the second world war, presumably relating to its length and difficulty.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #79 on: May 31, 2011, 02:51:01 AM »
I am always amused at the muted criticism and politeness contained in threads about butchered UK courses. 

It is no wonder that so little architecture work of note has been perfromed in the UK in the last 30 years when mediocrity and awefullness is not called out for what it is. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #80 on: May 31, 2011, 03:11:07 AM »
It is no wonder that so little architecture work of note has been perfromed in the UK in the last 30 years when mediocrity and awefullness is not called out for what it is. 

It is by Poulter and Casey, not that they could necessarily do any better.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #81 on: May 31, 2011, 03:23:18 AM »
I am always amused at the muted criticism and politeness contained in threads about butchered UK courses. 

It is no wonder that so little architecture work of note has been perfromed in the UK in the last 30 years when mediocrity and awefullness is not called out for what it is. 

David - as it's not online as far as I can see, I attach below my piece from Golf World last year, after the first round of changes....

Adam



Why Wentworth has got it wrong

by Adam Lawrence

Wentworth’s West course is Britain’s Augusta. The Burma Road may not have the exclusivity of the legendary Georgia venue, as anyone prepared to stump up the £285 green fee can play the course, nor has it hosted a Major championship for the last eighty years. But to UK golfers no course is so familiar. For the last quarter century, it has appeared on our screens twice each year, in spring for the PGA Championship, and in autumn for the World Matchplay.
Thus Wentworth’s influence is immense. It may not be the best course in Britain, but away from the links, it is surely the most prestigious.
Which is why the changes to the West are so disastrous. It is understandable that clubs whose fame and prestige is built on big tournaments should want to maintain the challenge of their courses – and remember the West got its ‘Burma Road’ nickname because of its fearsome length and difficulty – but the tremendous advances of club and ball technology really have made professional golf a different game in the last ten years. Amateurs have not benefitted from technology anywhere near so much, which is why average handicaps are roughly the same now as they have always been. How many of Wentworth’s members, Ross Fisher apart, are going to be able to hit the new eighteenth green in two? How many will find themselves taking several attempts to escape from the newly deepened bunkers around the second hole? And where is the fun in that?
Like it or not, the example set by these most high profile of courses does have an impact on golf in general. When Wentworth adds length, bunkers, water and trees, it validates other clubs doing the same to their courses. Tougher courses with more hazards take longer to play and cost more to maintain. At a time when golf is struggling to retain existing players and attract new ones, why on earth would we want to make the game more difficult, more time-consuming and more expensive?
Harry Colt, Wentworth’s original architect, may just be the greatest and most influential designer of golf courses in the game’s history. It is a shame to see his work being ripped up in this way, and gruesome to hear those who are doing it claim the changes are in the spirit of his original design. They are not. The golden age architects such as Colt, Herbert Fowler and Tom Simpson who turned the Surrey and Berkshire heathlands into the world’s first great inland golf region, built courses that were challenging to the top players of their day while still providing a fun day out for the less talented. They used natural features of the land, and they made their courses blend into the landscape, rather than artificially imposing golf on the environment. With golf under pressure to be a better steward of the land and to use less water and chemicals, this is a legacy that should be embraced, not spurned. Who now would know the West was a heathland course? Still, there is one solution for those who dislike these alterations. When you visit Wentworth, play the East course.

Adam Lawrence is editor of Golf Course Architecture (www.golfcoursearchitecture.net)

526 words
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #82 on: May 31, 2011, 03:45:44 AM »
The announcers referred to the Burma Road.Is that a nickname for the course or the club and why?Is that the club's address?

It's a nickname the course was given after the second world war, presumably relating to its length and difficulty.

Adam, I think it was also because they used some German POW's from a nearby camp in Egham to get the course back in shape after it had gone unattended through the war... So said a google search anyway...

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #83 on: May 31, 2011, 04:45:03 AM »
Adam,

Nice article.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #84 on: May 31, 2011, 06:08:23 AM »
Adam... thanks.

The article reflects my sentiments from what I've seen through photos, and Colt courses have gone under the knife from Canada to Germany with unhappy responses from aficionados. Sad.

.

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #85 on: May 31, 2011, 06:27:14 AM »
I think the 18th is as fake as Richard Caring (Wentworth owner)'s smile and tan.

http://tinyurl.com/3dxrslz

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #86 on: May 31, 2011, 10:22:35 AM »
The announcers referred to the Burma Road.Is that a nickname for the course or the club and why?Is that the club's address?

It's a nickname the course was given after the second world war, presumably relating to its length and difficulty.

Thanks.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #87 on: May 31, 2011, 10:32:07 AM »
Is that the first time World #1 and World #2 have ever played off?
Almost certainly.  And they weren't just playing off for the title, they were playing off for the No 1 ranking.

As to the stat that 33 of the World Top 100 were playing, it's worth noting how top heavy the field was.  7 of the world top 10.  It's the lower ranked players that were missing.  I imagine (but haven't done any analysis) that this reflects the way the top half of the world rankings is increasingly dominated by Europeans, or European Tour players.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #88 on: May 31, 2011, 11:57:25 AM »
That lake to the left of the 18th green just doesn't seem right to me. I'm sure Westwood would agree. To hit the green above the pin with his third shot in the playoff and the see it spin off into the lake was not a good thing. Why not a huge waste bunker instead?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #89 on: May 31, 2011, 11:58:38 AM »
Supposedly Richard Caring, the owner, insisted that the closing hole must have water.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #90 on: May 31, 2011, 02:21:51 PM »
Supposedly Richard Caring, the owner, insisted that the closing hole must have water.

Damn Sawgrass and its pernicious effect on the game.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #91 on: May 31, 2011, 02:34:25 PM »
Adam

Fantastic article, not much pussy footing around there.

As you say, who would know it was once a heathland course. Watching the coverage on the BBC is was interesting to watch Allis and crew trying to be diplomatic around big Ernie. What I also thought interesting was listening to Ernie saying how he wanted it to be like the Masters. If he really wanted it to be like the Masters he could have taken a leaf out of their book with this years set up. At the Masters the let the collars round the greens and at waters edge grow that bit longer which meant the margin for error was significantly increased. Imagine if that had been the case at the 18th at Wentworth, Westwood would have still been in the game instead of taking a drop.

As for the green with the pin position back left in a basin where bals were running round in a circle. If it was any more Mickey Mouse Walt Disney would be suing for breach of copyright.

Niall

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #92 on: May 31, 2011, 02:37:22 PM »
I think the 18th is as fake as Richard Caring (Wentworth owner)'s smile and tan.

http://tinyurl.com/3dxrslz
Seigfried could have put this guy into the act to replace Roy and no-one would have noticed.
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