[Sean_A]

David

I don't think B&B would make my list.  Its an out n' back routing - nothing special there.  What is interesting are the Colt add ons to some old fashioned design, but again, I think Portrush is a better example of this sort of thing. I spose, we have to throw Muirfield in that category as well. 

No doubt you are right, Sean, you have seen a lot more courses in the UK than I have.  I was just impressed with how much architectural interest there was at B&B compared to the other courses I played in England last year.  It made me think more about architecture and provided more food for thought than St Enodoc, Deal, Sunningdale Old, Berkshire(s), and Swinley, a few of which are mentioned in the OP.

David

I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on why B&B gave you more to chew on than a handful of courses I think are better.  For Swinley I can sort of understand because the course is never in good enough nick to really showcase the design.  To start off, can you compare/contrast Deal & B&B - deeper than the out n' back routing and the lack of wind change through the round as a result of the routing?

Ciao

Mark & Niall

I think you know my thoughts on Silloth.  Its one of my favourites, but I think it well short of greatness.  While that doesn't mean it isn't an interesting course, I was thinking for the purposes of this conversation that Silloth doesn't bring anything different to the table.

Ciao

[Mark_Rowlinson]

You don't actually need my comments. It was enough just to set a target list and allow you to shoot at it. I'm glad to see Royal Worlington in the mix....

[Tom Kelly]

I actually really like the course, but what exactly is so architecturally significant about Carnoustie?

Jud

I need to check my facts but possibly the best example of a links design from the most prolific gca in Britain. Also widely considered as being the most challenging championship course in the UK. Some might not consider that is a title worth having but surely worth considering what makes it what it is ?

What's so architecturally interesting about Prestwick and Portmarnock ?

Niall

I'd also add that as links land goes, the land Carnoustie is on is pretty poor, yet the course is very very good imo, some excellent bunkering and use of penal hazardous such as the burns and out of bounds. I think its the best example of penal golf I have seen in the UK, though I am yet to play many of the other courses mentioned above.

[Greg Holland]

Gullane No. 1 for its use of Gullane Hill?

[David_Elvins]

I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on why B&B gave you more to chew on than a handful of courses I think are better.  For Swinley I can sort of understand because the course is never in good enough nick to really showcase the design.  To start off, can you compare/contrast Deal & B&B - deeper than the out n' back routing and the lack of wind change through the round as a result of the routing?

Sean,

I have been meaning to post a few notes from my trip but have been distracted by work, kids and green ink.  I will try to cover this in more detail then but for now I will just say that I thought the English golf I saw (including Deal, Swinley, St Enodoc, etc) was very straight.  The diagonal carries and angles at B&B stood out and makes it worthy of study, IMO.  As does the variety of holes in a dunes setting.  I also thought the way the course played in and out of the dunes was cleverer than most and created a nice rhythm with a lot of variety.  Not many courses get that transition right, IMO.  

[Jud_T]

I actually really like the course, but what exactly is so architecturally significant about Carnoustie?

Jud

I need to check my facts but possibly the best example of a links design from the most prolific gca in Britain. Also widely considered as being the most challenging championship course in the UK. Some might not consider that is a title worth having but surely worth considering what makes it what it is ?

What's so architecturally interesting about Prestwick and Portmarnock ?

Niall

Prestwick - Old School minimalism, blind holes and brilliant use of a small piece of land.
Portmarnock- Routing and bunkering.

[Shane Wright]

Jud,

I'd like to hear more about why you think Portmarnock is more architecturally interesting than Carnoustie? How is the bunkering and routing more interesting than Carnoustie?

I think that Carnoustie does a brilliant job of using the snaking water thruout the property.  Is there another course in the U.K. that uses water ways thruout the property this well?  I think the routing at Carnoustie had to be more difficult. 

Shane

[Jud_T]

The routing at Portmarnock does a very good job of taking advantage of the wind and using all four directions.  There are some very strategic fairways bunker placements as I recall as well as some fierce testy greenside bunkers that are heroic up and ins.  I agree that the burn at Carnoustie is very well done if one goes in for such hazards and I suppose if having an example of a tough Championship test is a requirement of the list, which I'm not sure why it is, that Carnoustie does it about as well as anyone.

[Sean_A]

I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on why B&B gave you more to chew on than a handful of courses I think are better.  For Swinley I can sort of understand because the course is never in good enough nick to really showcase the design.  To start off, can you compare/contrast Deal & B&B - deeper than the out n' back routing and the lack of wind change through the round as a result of the routing?

Sean,

I have been meaning to post a few notes from my trip but have been distracted by work, kids and green ink.  I will try to cover this in more detail then but for now I will just say that I thought the English golf I saw (including Deal, Swinley, St Enodoc, etc) was very straight.  The diagonal carries and angles at B&B stood out and makes it worthy of study, IMO.  As does the variety of holes in a dunes setting.  I also thought the way the course played in and out of the dunes was cleverer than most and created a nice rhythm with a lot of variety.  Not many courses get that transition right, IMO.  

David

Yes, I grant that B&B uses flat land very well, but most see these holes as rather uninteresting compared to the more dunesy holes.  I think these folks fail to recognize the playable width the flat holes provide when contrasted with some of the more constricted holes thru the dunes.  

I also think there are few holes at B&B on which the golfer needs to go in search of a fairway because of crossing angles; #s 3 & 4 are the obvious examples.  However, there are a few others from certain tees.  #8 is an obvious example from the right tee, so too is #11 from the right tee.  #16 too is another good example.  10 too, but folks miss it because of the blindness, but it is a pronounced legger right.  I wish the club would widen the fairway out to the near the left boundary.  From this perspective #13 has been ruined.  In a bid for more yardage the hole has been straightened and lengthened - a bad move I think. A few lesser examples are #s 2, 6, 7, 12 & 14. There are more opportunities out there to create width/angles from tees - especially for championship play as there is tons of room for some bloody difficult teeing areas.

You are right, but I still think Portrush is a better example of this type of Colt course.  

What I find very curious about B&B is Americans generally don't hold the course in high regard, but Brits (maybe Aussies too) generally do.  I have asked why this is the case, but so far I haven't gotten to the bottom of the split.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Architecturally interesting means IMO unique, trend setting and/or inspirational.

1. Old Course, St Andrews - agree, special and unique
2. Royal St George’s - remove - Sorry to those who do, but I just don't like it!
3. Carnoustie - agree, look what can be done with mainly very flat terrain and unattractive views
4. Royal Portrush Dunluce - not played it
5. Royal Co Down - npi
6. Ballybunion - npi
7. Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers - agree, totally class
8. Royal West Norfolk - agree, unique
9. St Enodoc - remove, other than the scenery and the big bunker on the 6th what's unique?
10. Royal Cinque Ports - agree, more interesting than it's near neighbour IMO
11. Royal Dornoch - agree, great, although modified
12. Kingsbarns - agree - first of a new era in the UK
13. Sunningdale Old - agree
14. Swinley Forest - remove, how many west of London heathlands can you include?
15. Woking - remove, how many west of London heathlands can you include?
16. Royal Porthcawl - remove, super course though
17. Ganton - remove, super though
18. Gleneagles King’s - agree, trend setter
19. Silloth-on-Solway - remove, nice course, but not special IMO
20. North Berwick West - npi
21. Turnberry Ailsa - remove, it's the views not the course
22. Royal Liverpool - npi
23. Saunton East - remove, wonderful course though
24. Walton Heath Old - agree
25. Woodhall Spa Hotchkin - agree


Insert

• Huntercombe - novel, first of its kind
  Sunningdale New - early Harry Colt in action
  Perranporth - unique - nothing quite like it
  Beau Desert - Herbert Fowlers green complexes are wonderful
  a moorland/commonland course like Yelverton, Pennard, Clyne, Kington
  a MacKenzie course from north Leeds - he had such a big global influence, what was his early work like
  Burnham & Berrow Channel course/or St Olaf at Cruden Bay - shows how 9-holers can be great
  Trump Aberdeen - unique, shows how not to do go about it - only joking - not on my list!
  Tenby - holes 1-14 only though!

Is that still 25?!

All the best

[Bart Bradley]

People have suggested Rye but I haven't seen (although perhaps I missed it) the best reasons to include it.  Rye utilizes cross-winds better than any course I have played in the world.  Cross-winds and quartering winds make for very interesting shots.  That plus a wonderful set of par 3.

Bart

[Mark_Rowlinson]

It is brewing up nicely - it was always intended as a shooting gallery.....

[Bill_McBride]

People have suggested Rye but I haven't seen (although perhaps I missed it) the best reasons to include it.  Rye utilizes cross-winds better than any course I have played in the world.  Cross-winds and quartering winds make for very interesting shots.  That plus a wonderful set of par 3.

Bart

What about the holes that play on, into or over the dune ridge?   Loved 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 13!!!, 14, 16, 18!!   Very instructive with all the angles affected by the ridge. 

And the dormie house is very nice across the road.

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